OSAS= House Built on Sand

posthuman · Jul 28, 2018

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith — to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
(Romans 16:25-27)

Sabbatismos · Jul 28, 2018

posthuman said:

Greek: Every one Relying on him shall not be put to shame/ disappointed (Rom 9:33, 10:11; Isa 28:16, and literally dozens of verses in the LXX; which I can supply. "Believing" is misleading, and a false translation.

Sabbatismos · Jul 28, 2018

posthuman said:

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith — to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.

(Romans 16:25-27)

That should read: "faithful obedience". Not "faith". Huge difference

posthuman · Jul 28, 2018

Sabbatismos said:

so knowing that He is faithful even when i am not, relying on Him rather than myself to be delivered from death, putting no confidence in the flesh but all trust in His perfect, finished work of redemptioan, i can hold firm to a sure hope and know that i am saved despite my own failures, forever by His grace, unfailing love and everlasting lovingkindness?

that's fantastic

Deuteronomy · Jul 28, 2018

Sabbatismos said:

Hello Sabbatismos, if you don't mind me asking, what do you know that all of the Greek scholars (who gave us the various translations and paraphrases that you see below) do not? Why didn't any of these translation teams choose to translate πιστευόντων εἰς ἐμέ as you have chosen to in your translation of Matthew 18:6?

New International Version
"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

New Living Translation
But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

English Standard Version
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Berean Study Bible
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Berean Literal Bible
And whoever shall cause to stumble one of these of the little ones believing in Me, it is better for him that a heavy millstone should be hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

New American Standard Bible
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

King James Bible
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Christian Standard Bible
"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to fall away--it would be better for him if a heavy millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea.

Contemporary English Version
It will be terrible for people who cause even one of my little followers to sin. Those people would be better off thrown into the deepest part of the ocean with a heavy stone tied around their necks!

Good News Translation
"If anyone should cause one of these little ones to lose his faith in me, it would be better for that person to have a large millstone tied around his neck and be drowned in the deep sea.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"But whoever causes the downfall of one of these little ones who believe in Me--it would be better for him if a heavy millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea!

International Standard Version
"If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea.

NET Bible
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea.

New Heart English Bible
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him that a huge millstone should be hung around his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depths of the sea.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And everyone who commits an offense against one of these little ones who believe in me, it were profitable for him that a donkey's millstone would be hung around his neck and he be sunk in the depths of the sea.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"These little ones believe in me. It would be best for the person who causes one of them to lose faith to be drowned in the sea with a large stone hung around his neck.

New American Standard 1977
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But whosoever shall cause one of these little ones who believe in me to fall, it would be better for him that a millstone such as is turned by an ass be hanged about his neck and that he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

King James 2000 Bible
But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

American King James Version
But whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

American Standard Version
But whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Darby Bible Translation
But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were profitable for him that a great millstone had been hanged upon his neck and he be sunk in the depths of the sea.

English Revised Version
But whoso shall cause one of these little ones which believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Webster's Bible Translation
But whoever shall cause one of these little ones who believe in me, to sin, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Weymouth New Testament
But whoever shall occasion the fall of one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for him to have a millstone hung round his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

World English Bible
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him that a huge millstone should be hung around his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depths of the sea.

Young's Literal Translation
and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Thanks!

~Deut

garee · Jul 28, 2018

Sabbatismos said:

As long and the Sun and Moon are still are used as time keepers that together, day and night make up the word today (24 hours) today is today .

The word sabbath means rest with no other meaning added . It is not a time sensitive word .Any day we hear his voice and do not harden our own hearts we have entered His Sabbath.

Some simply do not mix faith in what they hear or see coming from the scriptures and therefore do not enter His rest (sabbath )

trofimus · Jul 28, 2018

So many new people has come last weeks to CC with "anti RCC, anti Augustin, anti Trinity, anti Calvin, anti Luther, anti historic creeds, anti general Church teachings, anti bible canon" views. And they all have some obvious agenda they came to teach.

Is this some kind of strange coincidence? I am not sure.

But they all know something what other Christians do not. Because they studied so much and we did not. I think that moderators should look at it, what is happening here last days.

garee · Jul 28, 2018

Sabbatismos said:

Faithfull obedience to whose work of faith if not Christ alone?

Can we have His (Christ's) faith in respect to us seen like that of Rebab or Abraham or would that blaspheme the Holy name by which we are called.

The Son of man was faithfully obedient to the father according to his work of faith. Was it enough to satisfy the just demands of the law?

What does the commandment says in respect to a imputed righteousness (not of our own selves) ?

My brethren, do not hold the faith of (belonging exclusively to) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory(belonging exclusively to) , with partiality.James2:1

Not faith in (towards) turning things upside down

The conclusion

Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?James2:7

Slayer · Jul 28, 2018

Sabbatismos said:

Being Submissive/ Faithful/Obedient To Him= Accurate

Just Believe/Accept Him as Saviour= Bad Translation in English

(Tranlations are mine from the Greek.
*All 41 occurrences of the Greek phrase
πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν
are listed below in context)

Part I

Mat 18:6 ὅς δ᾿ ἂν σκανδαλίσῃ ἕνα τῶν μικρῶν τούτων τῶν πιστευόντων εἰς ἐμέ, συμφέρει αὐτῷ ἵνα κρεμασθῇ μύλος ὀνικὸς εἰς τὸν τράχηλον αὐτοῦ καὶ καταποντισθῇ ἐν τῷ πελάγει τῆς θαλάσσης.
Mat 18:6 “Whoever should cause one of these little ones who are continually submissive and faithful to me to sin, it is better for him that a millstone of a donkey be tied around his neck and he be submerged in the depth of the open sea.” (repeated in Mk 9:42)

Joh 1:12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,
Joh 1:12 As many people that received him, he gave to them the privilege to become children of God—to the ones that are continually submissive and obedient to his authority.

Joh 2:11 Ταύτην ἐποίησε ἀρχὴν τῶν σημείων ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐν Κανὰ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐφανέρωσε τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτὸν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miraculous signs Yahshua performed in Cana of Galilee and he manifested his splendor. And his disciples were submissive to him.

Joh 2:23 ῾Ως δὲ ἦν τοῖς ῾Ιεροσολύμοις ἐν τῷ πάσχα ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ, πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, θεωροῦντες αὐτοῦ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐποίει.
Joh 2:23 While he was in Jerusalem during the festival of the Passover, many people were submissive to his authority as they were seeing the miracles that he did.

Joh 3:14 καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσε τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
Joh 3:15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Jn 3:14-16 “And in the same way that Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, it is necessary for the Son of Humanity likewise to be lifted up, in order that everyone who is continually faithful and submissive to him should not be destroyed, but instead, possess age-abiding Life. Because God in this manner was lovingly-devoted to the cosmos: to the point that he gave his one-of-a-kind son, in order that every person who is constantly submissive and obedient to him might not be destroyed, but instead possess age-abiding Life.”

Joh 3:18 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται, ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται, ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ μονογενοῦς Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Joh 3:18 “The one who is obedient to him is not judged; but the one who is not faithful is already judged, because he has not been submissive to the authority of the unique-in-kind son of God.”

Joh 3:36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν Υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ Υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ᾿ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν.
Joh 3:36 The person who is submissively being obedient to the son possesses age-abiding Life; but the person who is being disobedient to the son will not see Life. Instead, the wrath of God is remaining on top of him.

Joh 4:39 ᾿Εκ δὲ τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτὸν τῶν Σαμαριτῶν διὰ τὸν λόγον τῆς γυναικὸς, μαρτυρούσης ὅτι εἶπέ μοι πάντα ὅσα ἐποίησα.
Joh 4:39 Many people of the Samaritans from that city became faithful to him on account of the statement of the woman who testified, “He told me everything that I have done!”

Joh 6:29 ἀπεκρίθη ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· τοῦτό ἐστι τὸ ἔργον τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἵνα πιστεύσητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος.
Joh 6:29 Yahshua answered and told them, “This is the 'work of God': that you should be submissive and faithful to the person that he sent!”

Joh 6:35 εἶπε δὲ αὐτοῖς ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς· ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ διψήσει πώποτε.
Joh 6:35 Yahshua told them, “I am Life's Bread. The person constantly approaching me will never be hungry, and the person being consistantly submissive and faithful to me will not ever be thirsty.”

Joh 6:40 τοῦτο δὲ ἐστι τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐγὼ τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
Joh 6:40 “This is the intention of the one who sent me: in order that everyone who is constantly looking to the son, and being always submissive and faithful to him, may have age-abiding Life. And I will resurrect him in the Last Day.”

(Part II next)

There's just one slight problem here, no person on earth is constantly faithful and submissive to Him. We still sin every day of our lives, until we die. We simply cannot stop sinning no matter how hard we try, but that's OK Christ died for our past, present and future sins so all is forgiven and we can rejoice in that fact.

We will cease sinning when we die and receive our glorified sinless, eternal bodies. Until then we will remain in this corrupt body of death and sin, and we will battle against the flesh for the rest of our lives and never get the victory until the end.

lightbearer · Jul 28, 2018

Sabbatismos said:

Strong's states: By implication to entrust; commit (to trust), put in trust with.
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Total KJV occurrences: 248

If By implication pisteuo is to intrust; believe, commit, put in trust with especially one's spiritual well being to Christ then we can also say rely. In the same sense submit and be obedient since we would be doing that if we were committed and trusting GOD. But constantly and continually is in no way implied in the word or is it.

Pisteuo is in the present tense in John 3:16. Couple that with the fact that it's mood is participle it should probably have an -ing on the end of it.

So we have "whosoever is believing, trusting, relying, committing into Him shall not perish but have life everlasting.

Most here would not argue that believing is an action that can be observed in our actions. The issue in the clause you chose to discuss is εἰς. For it is to be understood as INTO Him not on or in, but into.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Joh 3:16 LITV-TSP)

lightbearer · Jul 28, 2018

Slayer said:

Only GOD knows that.

Slayer said:

Where is that verse in the Bible.

lightbearer · Jul 28, 2018

trofimus said:

Really? What about the constant personal attacks and comments about our fellow members and not actually addressing the OP by long standing members?

Zmouth · Jul 28, 2018

But it is written in John 11; "Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

So if the Sun and Moon are used as time keepers,
then if the greater light was to rule by day
and the lesser by was to rule by night,

then is it day or night in the picture above
where the Moon is visible in the sky?

Yet who uses the Sun and Moon to keep time?

Slayer · Jul 28, 2018

lightbearer said:

For "ALL" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, yes God knows that.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved" I believe this verse is talking about those who remain faithful to the end, shall be saved. So we receive salvation at the end of our lives and not during. This is why we continue to sin to the end.

trofimus · Jul 28, 2018

lightbearer said:

"Not addressing the OP" is not a problem of the same category as having CC where the majority (or the most active minority) is outside of orthodoxy, inclining to gnosticism, nestorianism, arianism, oneness, hebrew roots etc.

IMHO.

Personal attacks are coming from all sides.

jameen · Jul 28, 2018

You are once saved from the power of sin (as you can read in Ephesians 2:1-5) and not yet on eternal damnation.

you will always be saved from the power of sin as long as you live by the words of God in the Bible.

This is the real meaning of OSAS.

In order to be saved from eternal damnation, you must do this:

The Day of the Lord

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

lightbearer · Jul 28, 2018

garee said:

We are to be dead nevertheless alive. But not us both Christ lives in us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we are now to Live by the Faith of Christ.

Faith of Christ . Not Faith in or on; but the Faith of Christ in Gal. 2:20. Christ in us the Hope of Glory. For as many of us as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27,28

GOD in Him, He in us that the world might believe.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the Word) down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Word) again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word in our hearts and mouths) is the end of the law (that witten with ink and on tables of stone) for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10:6-8,4

Slayer · Jul 28, 2018

jameen said:

All true believers have no doubt about their salvation, we are assured by Christ Himself and He will not fail to finish what he started.

The above verses are very sobering reminders of what could happen at any moment, so it should keep us on the narrow path at all times.

lightbearer · Jul 28, 2018

Slayer said:

Sin in that verse is in the past tense.

Context of the passage draws us back to at least verse 21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

It is no longer us obeying that which is written on parchment and Tables of stone. It is a new ministration; written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
(2Co 3:3-5 KJV)

This is the Salvation that is in Christ. This is that which how we are to endure to the end.

Saved in the context of Matthew is in reference to the end of time when we will experience Life as it was meant to be. No more sorrow, no more death.

Slayer · Jul 28, 2018

lightbearer said:

So if I understand you correctly, we receive the righteousness of God which is by faith in Christ and we no longer sin. I believe that verse just means that we are no longer given over to serve sin as we used to, before we believed.

Before I was converted I sinned to my hearts content, then after my conversion the battle against the flesh started and continues to this day. I was hoping you would agree that we continue to sin until the end, but we fight temptation all the way to the end and then we receive our reward.

OSAS= House Built on Sand

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