Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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You are sure going to have a hard time harmonizing the scriptures. John 6:37-40, Jesus died only for those that God gave him and all that he died for will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. Dan 4:35, God accomplishes all of his will. If he wanted to save all mankind to heaven, then all mankind will surly be in heaven.
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Basically, my post was to show you what I found in Thayer's which didn't exactly match up with what you said you found in Thayer's.
I don't have any problem harmonizing the scriptures . . . The Father gives to the Son those who believe in him . . ."Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty." God does desire for all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).
I don't have any problem harmonizing the scriptures . . . The Father gives to the Son those who believe in him . . ."Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty." God does desire for all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).
I think you have misunderstood Calvin's view, on when a person is saved. You say your impression is that Calvin believed "They are saved before they believe". He never made that claim. He believed a person is saved in the end, so salvation comes at the end.
The only thing that Gods elect have and the others don't is the gift to believe the Gospel when they hear it. Once a person believes, then they will obey Christ and they will follow Him and do everything necessary to receive salvation.
Most people have the wrong view about predestination, they say God created some people only to punish them in hell. That's false, they are only punished because they lived a rebellious life of sin. They choose to sin against God because they put the enjoyment of their sins above obeying God, so God will not accept them.
Yes God didn't give them the gift of faith, before they were born but that still doesn't excuse them for living sinful rebellious lives.
The only thing that Gods elect have and the others don't is the gift to believe the Gospel when they hear it. Once a person believes, then they will obey Christ and they will follow Him and do everything necessary to receive salvation.
Most people have the wrong view about predestination, they say God created some people only to punish them in hell. That's false, they are only punished because they lived a rebellious life of sin. They choose to sin against God because they put the enjoyment of their sins above obeying God, so God will not accept them.
Yes God didn't give them the gift of faith, before they were born but that still doesn't excuse them for living sinful rebellious lives.
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I would suggest seeing God who is of mind as the kind of God who always does what soever His soul desires(Job 23) .If he desired that all as in everyone would be saved all would . But he informs us as many as the father gave to the Son those alone will come as those he would never cast out .
If he gives us his work of faith or labor of His love our free gift... as a new faith we can have towards him we would never thirst for a righteousness of our own self . We would never go hungry eating the meat of his word as doing the will of God. The kind of food the disciples at first knew not of.
If he gives us his work of faith or labor of His love our free gift... as a new faith we can have towards him we would never thirst for a righteousness of our own self . We would never go hungry eating the meat of his word as doing the will of God. The kind of food the disciples at first knew not of.
How do you harmonize 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9? No man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ - salvation hinges on mankinds belief in Jesus Christ . . . The dream that Nebuchadnezzar had was the result of HIS worshipping other gods and demanding that others do the same and nothing that Nebuchadnezzar could do would change that except to "break off thy sins by righteousness and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquility."
Did Nebuchadnezzar break of his sins? Nope - The king spake, and said, Is not this the great Babylon, THAT I HAVE BUILT for the house of the kingdom BY THE MIGHT OF MY POWER, and for the HONOR OF MY MAJESTY? . . . . PRIDE caused the destruction that came upon Nebuchadnezzar - the fulfillment of his dream.
But when those days were fulfilled, those days prophesied through his dream, his understanding returned to him and he BLESSED THE MOST HIGH, and PRAISED AND HONORED him. So, God showed Nebuchadnezzar what would happen if he didn't break off his sins by doing righteousness and his iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor via the dream he had and that is exactly what was fulfilled.
That section of scripture has to do with King Nebuchadnezzar and him only but it does relate to Deut. 30:19: I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Could he have chosen "to break of his sins" and change the events? Apparently so. (You will surely reap what you sow!!
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Did Nebuchadnezzar break of his sins? Nope - The king spake, and said, Is not this the great Babylon, THAT I HAVE BUILT for the house of the kingdom BY THE MIGHT OF MY POWER, and for the HONOR OF MY MAJESTY? . . . . PRIDE caused the destruction that came upon Nebuchadnezzar - the fulfillment of his dream.
But when those days were fulfilled, those days prophesied through his dream, his understanding returned to him and he BLESSED THE MOST HIGH, and PRAISED AND HONORED him. So, God showed Nebuchadnezzar what would happen if he didn't break off his sins by doing righteousness and his iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor via the dream he had and that is exactly what was fulfilled.
That section of scripture has to do with King Nebuchadnezzar and him only but it does relate to Deut. 30:19: I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Could he have chosen "to break of his sins" and change the events? Apparently so. (You will surely reap what you sow!!
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How do you reconcile your view with all the scriptures which say God choose us before the foundation of the world and may more which I'm sure you are aware of.
What do you think of the link below, it lists both views and I'm sure you would agree that the predestination/election view is more Biblical.
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith
What do you think of the link below, it lists both views and I'm sure you would agree that the predestination/election view is more Biblical.
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith
God chose Christianity, not individual Christians. He wants ALL people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and become saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).
No, I obviously do not believe the "predestination/election" view is more biblical. CARM holds to Reformed Theology, which is Calvinism, and I am convinced it's a false theology.
No, I obviously do not believe the "predestination/election" view is more biblical. CARM holds to Reformed Theology, which is Calvinism, and I am convinced it's a false theology.
You left out the words "in him". The context in that passage is spiritual blessings in the heavenly places not salvation. God, before the foundation of the world, chose to give spiritual blessings to those in Christ. It does not, I repeat, does not say God chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world. Calvinists focus on the "us" instead of "in him".
Good one.. I can see where Calvinists would interpret that as saying that God gives people the "gift to believe". But I believe it is wrong to interpret that one verse in that way when there are many other scriptures contradicting that understanding.
Calvinists will disagree, but I believe that since the Bible is clear that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9), that the "gift" in that verse is not the "gift to believe", but along with the fact that Christians choose TO believe, God has given us to suffer for Him. Standing for Christ is not always easy.
The debate over whether Calvinism is true or not will not be settled here. People have been arguing about it for centuries. But I remain absolutely convinced that Calvinism is not true, that God gave people the ability to choose. He wants people to choose Him, He does not make some love Him but not others. That's not love.
Calvinists will disagree, but I believe that since the Bible is clear that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9), that the "gift" in that verse is not the "gift to believe", but along with the fact that Christians choose TO believe, God has given us to suffer for Him. Standing for Christ is not always easy.
The debate over whether Calvinism is true or not will not be settled here. People have been arguing about it for centuries. But I remain absolutely convinced that Calvinism is not true, that God gave people the ability to choose. He wants people to choose Him, He does not make some love Him but not others. That's not love.
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You are not understanding, what you call my favorite verse, 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man will not choose God because God is a Spirit and the natural men cannot understand spiritual things. Sorry I have to keep throwing this verse up to you, Shrume, but until you acknowledge that it is in the bible, I am compelled to.
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I think that the part "not only to believe in him" means that to believe is also belonging to the "granted" logic.
Other places:
"no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:65
"all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me."
John 6:37
To come to Christ means to believe in Him.
Other places:
"no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:65
"all that the Father gives to Me will come to Me."
John 6:37
To come to Christ means to believe in Him.
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I am fully aware 1 Cor 2:14 is in the Bible, Forest, and I am also fully aware of how you mangle 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eph 1:13; Eze 33:11; and others to make them fit Calvinism.
A natural man can hear the gospel and understand it well enough to choose to believe it, at which point he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and becomes saved.
A natural man can hear the gospel and understand it well enough to choose to believe it, at which point he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and becomes saved.
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