John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[Slayer]

Sounds to me like you do not believe the word of Jesus.

Every man born into this world chooses to sin. He is not born with sin but chooses to sin. He must also choose to forsake his sin and receive Christ.

God is sovereign but does not need to manipulate every action of His creation. Love and especially Gods love is far greater than mans sin. This is evidenced in Christs sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.

Man is made in the image of God and marred by sin. One consequence of the fall was the imparting of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam knew only good until the fall. Now man must choose betwen good and evil. He must choose between Christ and sin.

Gods sovereignty is not threatened by mans free will and obligation to choose between light and darkness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

This is the first time I've heard the Gospel according to Saint Roger no seriously Sir, I'm surprised to hear that a Christian would have this view.

I've heard many sermons at Church and studied the Bible for a few years now and I've never heard that people are born without inheriting original sin. I have been taught that every person has been born dead in trespasses and sin since Adam and Eve. And that's why Christ came into the world to atone for our sins so that we could be quickened back to life.

If man was born with the ability to choose not to sin, then Christ didn't need to come and suffer so much to save us from the penalty our sins deserve.

Gods sovereignty is absolutely threatened by mans free choice, it means that men can choose to sin and force God to pass judgement on them by casting them into hell. I believe God wouldn't leave such an important thing in the hands of sinful man, so He decided to make that decision for every man.

I don't want to get into a debate about Calvinism and Arminanism, but I won't back down if you want to go there.

https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You didn't answer the question. Can the Holy Spirit draw a lost man to the knowledge of the Savior? Then, it is the lost man's choice whether to believe and call upon the Lord to be saved.

No the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot be drawn to a knowledge of the savior, because he cannot discern anything of a spiritual nature, until he is first born of the Spirit, then, and only then, can he discern spiritual things, An example would be, Romans 10 where men who were born of the Spirit and had a zeal of God, and were depending upon the old law of works, as most on this forum do, and are lacking a knowledge of the truth about God's grace. Paul went on in chapter 10 to tell them what they were supposed to do.

 

[notuptome]

This is the first time I've heard the Gospel according to Saint Roger no seriously Sir, I'm surprised to hear that a Christian would have this view.

I've heard many sermons at Church and studied the Bible for a few years now and I've never heard that people are born without inheriting original sin. I have been taught that every person has been born dead in trespasses and sin since Adam and Eve. And that's why Christ came into the world to atone for our sins so that we could be quickened back to life.

If man was born with the ability to choose not to sin, then Christ didn't need to come and suffer so much to save us from the penalty our sins deserve.

Gods sovereignty is absolutely threatened by mans free choice, it means that men can choose to sin and force God to pass judgement on them by casting them into hell. I believe God wouldn't leave such an important thing in the hands of sinful man, so He decided to make that decision for every man.

I don't want to get into a debate about Calvinism and Arminanism, but I won't back down if you want to go there.

https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

Loss of innocence results in condemnation. Inheriting original sin is a Roman Catholic tradition. Men are born with a nature that will sin but they cannot sin until they attain accountability.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

No the natural man, void of the Spirit, cannot be drawn to a knowledge of the savior, because he cannot discern anything of a spiritual nature, until he is first born of the Spirit, then, and only then, can he discern spiritual things, An example would be, Romans 10 where men who were born of the Spirit and had a zeal of God, and were depending upon the old law of works, as most on this forum do, and are lacking a knowledge of the truth about God's grace. Paul went on in chapter 10 to tell them what they were supposed to do.

All men have sufficient Light to receive the word of God and come to Christ.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

You are still fighting against the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Slayer]

Loss of innocence results in condemnation. Inheriting original sin is a Roman Catholic tradition. Men are born with a nature that will sin but they cannot sin until they attain accountability.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sorry to bother you again Sir, but are you able to Biblically support the view that we cannot sin until we until we attain accountability. And that we can choose not to sin. It's all new to me, maybe I've been kept in the dark by the Elders at my Church.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God doesn't fail, I would agree, but God gave them a choice. Those chose not to trust Him, so He didn't allow them to enter.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God has predetermined who will be saved, and they were saved before the foundation of the world, in fact, they were saved before they knew it themselves, and no one cannot resist His will....tell me, why the longsuffering of God? Why would God suffer long for those who He has predetermined to be saved? Longsuffering implies that there's going to come a time when God's patience will run out and He will proceed with or without us.

God allows man to have a freedom of choice about how he lives his life here on earth, but his eternal life, that is God's choice by his sovereign grace. God is not pleased with some of man's choices, and if they are his children, he chastens them. that is judging us by our works right here on earth. On the last day, because he has already judged them, he will tell them to enter in. God does not judge those that are not his children while they are living here on earth, but at the last day he will judge those that are not his by their works while they were here on earth. Sorry, I got off on another subject and have not commented on 2 Pet 3:9, To keep this verse in context we have to see who Peter is talking to, which we find, in 2 Pet 1:1, that they are those that have obtained "like precious faith". Peter even includes himself in this warning by using the word "us-ward". Peter is talking to them about the second coming of Jesus and warning to repent of their disobedience as to not perish ( lose their fellowship with God ). Not their eternal salvation.

 

[John146]

God allows man to have a freedom of choice about how he lives his life here on earth, but his eternal life, that is God's choice by his sovereign grace. God is not pleased with some of man's choices, and if they are his children, he chastens them. that is judging us by our works right here on earth. On the last day, because he has already judged them, he will tell them to enter in. God does not judge those that are not his children while they are living here on earth, but at the last day he will judge those that are not his by their works while they were here on earth. Sorry, I got off on another subject and have not commented on 2 Pet 3:9, To keep this verse in context we have to see who Peter is talking to, which we find, in 2 Pet 1:1, that they are those that have obtained "like precious faith". Peter even includes himself in this warning by using the word "us-ward". Peter is talking to them about the second coming of Jesus and warning to repent of their disobedience as to not perish ( lose their fellowship with God ). Not their eternal salvation.

Sovereign grace is not found in Scripture. What is God going to judge the lost man for?

So, in 2 Peter, the word perish is merely losing fellowship with God? Nope. Not buying it. Besides, why is God longsuffering if it's already been determined?

When the words "elect" and "predestined" are used in Scripture the concern is never salvation, but service and inheritance respectively. God has elect angels, an elect nation (Israel), an elect group during the great tribulation, and His elect unto salvation (Jesus Christ). Not one person is predestined until they get in Christ, God's elect.

 

[notuptome]

Sorry to bother you again Sir, but are you able to Biblically support the view that we cannot sin until we until we attain accountability. And that we can choose not to sin. It's all new to me, maybe I've been kept in the dark by the Elders at my Church.

Makes you wonder what else is lacking in your discipleship. Innocent children are not condemned. They only become accountable to God when they are old enough to discern right from wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForestGreenCook]

An unbeliever being under the conviction of the Holy Spirit is not him being void of the Spirit. It's not him having the Spirit in salvation, but it's definitely not him being void of the Spirit either.

If he was not void of the Spirit he would be able to discern spiritual things, and he cannot discern spiritual things, because he is void of the Spirit, Maybe you should read 1 Cor 2:14 again. He cannot be convicted if he does not understand anything about a spiritual law.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sovereign grace is not found in Scripture. What is God going to judge the lost man for?

So, in 2 Peter, the word perish is merely losing fellowship with God? Nope. Not buying it. Besides, why is God longsuffering if it's already been determined?

When the words "elect" and "predestined" are used in Scripture the concern is never salvation, but service and inheritance respectively. God has elect angels, an elect nation (Israel), an elect group during the great tribulation, and His elect unto salvation (Jesus Christ). Not one person is predestined until they get in Christ, God's elect.

God is longsuffering ( patient ) With his disobedient children to repent and come back to a fellowship with him.

 

[John146]

If he was not void of the Spirit he would be able to discern spiritual things, and he cannot discern spiritual things, because he is void of the Spirit, Maybe you should read 1 Cor 2:14 again. He cannot be convicted if he does not understand anything about a spiritual law.

The Spirit does not have to be in someone to draw them unto the Lord. 1 Cor. 2:14 does not teach otherwise.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Would you be angry if your wife was raped? Why? God determined that to happen according to your view of God. Would you question God? This whole sovereignty of God thing just is not biblical. It's a man made doctrine.

God allowed man to have a free will to choose ever thing about how man wants to live his life here on this earth, but man's eternal salvation is God's choice, and not man's. God predestined his elect to be adopted by Jesus, and I am sorry Slayer, but God did not predetermine every mans actions as he lives his life here on earth. God does know every time someone gets raped, and when each sparrow falls by his foreknowledge and all the bad thing that is going to happen. God is sovereign ( accomplishes all of his will without the help of man, and that includes a man's eternal salvation ) in every thing that he does.

 

[garee]

The Spirit does not have to be in someone to draw them unto the Lord. 1 Cor. 2:14 does not teach otherwise.

If any man old testament or new has not the Spirit of Christ the eternal Holy Spirit of God then neither do they belong to Him. No man can come unless the father draws them. No man of his own volition can seek after God not seen

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Ralph-]

If he was not void of the Spirit he would be able to discern spiritual things, and he cannot discern spiritual things, because he is void of the Spirit, Maybe you should read 1 Cor 2:14 again. He cannot be convicted if he does not understand anything about a spiritual law.

No, the unconverted person can discern what the Holy Spirit is testifying to him about. And what the Spirit is testifying about is the gospel message. No more, no less.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 9 ...the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 ...the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son."-1 John 5:8-10

The unbeliever hears the testimony of the Spirit, and if he decides to not believe it, he is in effect calling God a liar. If he could not discern any and all spiritual truth as you insist (because he does not 'have' the Spirit in salvation) he would not be guilty of making God a liar.

The Spirit does not speak with an impediment. Obviously, the unbeliever does comprehend the gospel message, despite the fact that he does not possess the Spirit in salvation, and he must, so that he can then believe it if he so chooses to. Most, though, will choose not to believe what the Spirit makes clear to them through the voice of the Holy Spirit about the gospel message. That is called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What makes it so severe is the very fact that the person knows exactly what is being said by the Spirit (despite not 'having' the Holy Spirit in salvation), and yet rejects it anyway.


Calvinism is probably the most meaningless, ridiculously over thought doctrine of men that I can think of.

 

[John146]

If any man old testament or new has not the Spirit of Christ the eternal Holy Spirit of God then neither do they belong to Him. No man can come unless the father draws them. No man of his own volition can seek after God not seen

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Agree with what you're saying, but how is man drawn but by the Holy Spirit. Once drawn, then it is man's choice to believe.

 

[John146]

God allowed man to have a free will to choose ever thing about how man wants to live his life here on this earth, but man's eternal salvation is God's choice, and not man's. God predestined his elect to be adopted by Jesus, and I am sorry Slayer, but God did not predetermine every mans actions as he lives his life here on earth. God does know every time someone gets raped, and when each sparrow falls by his foreknowledge and all the bad thing that is going to happen. God is sovereign ( accomplishes all of his will without the help of man, and that includes a man's eternal salvation ) in every thing that he does.

Elect is always tied to service and never salvation. Predestined is always tied to inheritance, the redemption of the body to those already in Christ and is never tied to salvation. Here are the elect of God:

God has elect angels.
God has an elect nation, Israel.
God has an elect group during the great tribulation.
God has an elect Son that has provided the means of salvation, Jesus Christ.

No other elect is mentioned.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Spirit does not have to be in someone to draw them unto the Lord. 1 Cor. 2:14 does not teach otherwise.

Here is what 1 Cor 2:14 says, the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness unto him, and he can not know them, because they are spiritually discerned, The Spirit will not tell someone to obey the spiritual law of God who does not have the Spirit within him and the natural man does not know God's spiritual law. The Holly Spirit only convicts those that have the Spirit within them.

Loss of innocence results in condemnation. Inheriting original sin is a Roman Catholic tradition. Men are born with a nature that will sin but they cannot sin until they attain accountability.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes, Roger, every man is born with a nature that will sin, and that nature is the nature of Adam Rom 5:18, Therefore as by the offense of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation. Not a Roman Catholic tradition, Before you make a statement, you would do well to

If any man old testament or new has not the Spirit of Christ the eternal Holy Spirit of God then neither do they belong to Him. No man can come unless the father draws them. No man of his own volition can seek after God not seen

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Makes you wonder what else is lacking in your discipleship. Innocent children are not condemned. They only become accountable to God when they are old enough to discern right from wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Rom 5:18, Roger, when you were born into this world, you were born condemned, and stayed that way until God put his Spirit within you. Some people might be born of the Spirit before their natural birth, as John the baptist was ( Luke 1:35-41 ), When Mary was with Jesus in her womb, she met Elisabeth, the mother of John when Elisabeth was 6 months pregnant and the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. You are still trying to cause man's works to save him by insinuating that before a child can be born of the Spirit they have to be old enough to know right from wrong. God can regenerate the natural man any time he wants to, whether he is young or old.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, the unconverted person can discern what the Holy Spirit is testifying to him about. And what the Spirit is testifying about is the gospel message. No more, no less.

"It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 9 ...the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 ...the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son."-1 John 5:8-10

The unbeliever hears the testimony of the Spirit, and if he decides to not believe it, he is in effect calling God a liar. If he could not discern any and all spiritual truth as you insist (because he does not 'have' the Spirit in salvation) he would not be guilty of making God a liar.

The Spirit does not speak with an impediment. Obviously, the unbeliever does comprehend the gospel message, despite the fact that he does not possess the Spirit in salvation, and he must, so that he can then believe it if he so chooses to. Most, though, will choose not to believe what the Spirit makes clear to them through the voice of the Holy Spirit about the gospel message. That is called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. What makes it so severe is the very fact that the person knows exactly what is being said by the Spirit (despite not 'having' the Holy Spirit in salvation), and yet rejects it anyway.


Calvinism is probably the most meaningless, ridiculously over thought doctrine of men that I can think of.

It is evident that you do not understand 1 Cor 2:14. What do you not understand about NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM?

 

[notuptome]

Rom 5:18, Roger, when you were born into this world, you were born condemned, and stayed that way until God put his Spirit within you. Some people might be born of the Spirit before their natural birth, as John the baptist was ( Luke 1:35-41 ), When Mary was with Jesus in her womb, she met Elisabeth, the mother of John when Elisabeth was 6 months pregnant and the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. You are still trying to cause man's works to save him by insinuating that before a child can be born of the Spirit they have to be old enough to know right from wrong. God can regenerate the natural man any time he wants to, whether he is young or old.

You have well proven that you do not know sound doctrine. You do not desire sound doctrine and you cannot receive sound doctrine.

Man has a will. That will is at enmity against God. Man must surrender his will to the will of God to receive salvation by grace. Until you accept your need to be saved you will not receive grace and have your sins remitted. You want God to force you to be holy. God will not do for you what you are able to do for yourself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger