John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[Slayer]

Jesus said something quite in contrast to your personal opinion on the subject.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Israel Gods elect and they reject the Messiah?

God created man that man would glorify God. Without free will to choose how can God be glorified? God crafted the plan of salvation knowing that His creation would need to be redeemed. In this God is glorified.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It sounds to me like you believe God created man and then let him lose to do as he pleases, with no control over him. This doesn't sound like the God who is sovereign over all of His creation.

We were all born fallen sinners, as such no person can please God, the only way we can please Him is if His Spirit indwells us and leads us to follow His Son. The whole reason for salvation is to conform us into the image of His Son, so the more we become like His Son the more we can please Him.

All true believers will receive their glorified sinless bodies after they die, then they will be able to please god at all times. Until then it will be a daily struggle against the corrupt body of death.

If we are born dead in our sins and trespasses, how then can such a person cause themselves to repent and believe. God has to quicken the person and put the ability to believe in him, or he will remain dead in sin until his body dies.

 

[John146]

It sounds to me like you believe God created man and then let him lose to do as he pleases, with no control over him. This doesn't sound like the God who is sovereign over all of His creation.

We were all born fallen sinners, as such no person can please God, the only way we can please Him is if His Spirit indwells us and leads us to follow His Son. The whole reason for salvation is to conform us into the image of His Son, so the more we become like His Son the more we can please Him.

All true believers will receive their glorified sinless bodies after they die, then they will be able to please god at all times. Until then it will be a daily struggle against the corrupt body of death.

If we are born dead in our sins and trespasses, who then can such a person cause themselves to repent and believe. God has to quicken the person and put the ability to believe in him, or he will remain dead in sin until his body dies.

Could you define what you mean by "sovereign" since it's not found in Scripture. Man has a tendency to define a word, then place God in our definition, instead of allowing Scripture to define God's attributes.

 

[Grandpa]

God doesn't fail, I would agree, but God gave them a choice

That's not agreeing. That is dis-agreeing. Those two things are contradictory statements.

Either God doesn't fail or God lets people ruin His Plan.

Those chose not to trust Him, so He didn't allow them to enter.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God has predetermined who will be saved, and they were saved before the foundation of the world, in fact, they were saved before they knew it themselves, and no one cannot resist His will....tell me, why the longsuffering of God? Why would God suffer long for those who He has predetermined to be saved? Longsuffering implies that there's going to come a time when God's patience will run out and He will proceed with or without us.

How long did the World have to continue for you to get here?

A pretty long time, right?

God is long-suffering in allowing the world to continue even though only a few from each generation are saved.

What if God had decided to stop everything just before those few from the generation that were going to be saved were saved?

Then those few would perish and not all that were going to come to repentance would have.

 

[John146]

That's not agreeing. That is dis-agreeing. Those two things are contradictory statements.

Either God doesn't fail or God lets people ruin His Plan.


How long did the World have to continue for you to get here?

A pretty long time, right?

God is long-suffering in allowing the world to continue even though only a few from each generation are saved.

What if God had decided to stop everything just before those few from the generation that were going to be saved were saved?

Then those few would perish and not all that were going to come to repentance would have.

The context is the last days. God is not slacking off because He has not fulfilled the promise of His coming as King, but is longsuffering towards man, not willing that any man perish. There will come a day when He cuts man off and says enough. I'm going on with the promised program with or without you.

 

[Slayer]

Could you define what you mean by "sovereign" since it's not found in Scripture. Man has a tendency to define a word, then place God in our definition, instead of allowing Scripture to define God's attributes.

Everything that we have learned about Gods attributes leads us to conclude that He is sovereign over all of His creation. We believe this in the context that, He predetermined the whole of human history from the beginning to the end. So everything that happens in Gods universe is predetermined and He causes everything to happen exactly as He planned it to happen.

We believe that, absolutely everything that happens from a hair falling from your head to a supernova explosion are all predetermined to happen exactly where and when He ordained it. This includes the salvation of everyone who was saved and who will be saved in the future.

I appreciate a lot of people have a problem with our view, and that's quite understandable. Gods ways are so far above ours that our minds don't have the capacity to process how great He really is. So we need to accept God on His terms and not try to make Him conform to our expectation.

 

[John146]

Everything that we have learned about Gods attributes leads us to conclude that He is sovereign over all of His creation. We believe this in the context that, He predetermined the whole of human history from the beginning to the end. So everything that happens in Gods universe is predetermined and He causes everything to happen exactly as He planned.

We believe that, absolutely everything that happens from a hair falling from your head to a supernova explosion are all predetermined to happen exactly where and when He ordained it. This includes the salvation of everyone who was ever been saved and who will be saved in the future.

I appreciate a lot of people have a problem with our view, and that's quite understandable. Gods ways are so far above ours that our minds don't have the capacity to process how great He really is. So we need to accept God on His terms and not try to make Him conform to our expectation.

Would you be angry if your wife was raped? Why? God determined that to happen according to your view of God. Would you question God? This whole sovereignty of God thing just is not biblical. It's a man made doctrine.

 

[Slayer]

Would you be angry if your wife was raped? Why? God determined that to happen according to your view of God. Would you question God? This whole sovereignty of God thing just is not biblical. It's a man made doctrine.

I would have to accept the fact that God allowed it to happen, why He preordained it is a mystery at this time but He will reveal everything to His people at the appointed time, when we will finnaly understand why everything happened as it did and we will love Him even more for it.

Look at what happened to Job, and he accepted all of it and continued to praise and worship God. I'm sure Job doesn't have any regrets about his suffering during this short life. Eternity in paradise is a long time, all wounds will be healed and all tears will be wiped away.

 

[John146]

I would have to accept the fact that God allowed it to happen, why He preordained it is a mystery at this time but He will reveal everything to His people at the appointed time, when we will finnaly understand why everything happened as it did and we will love Him even more for it.

Look at what happened to Job, and he accepted all of it and continued to praise and worship God. I'm sure Job doesn't have any regrets about his suffering during this short life. Eternity in paradise is a long time, all wounds will be healed and all tears will be wiped away.

Wait a minute...God allowed it to happen or decreed it to happen? There's is a difference.

God is not, I repeat, is not the author of sin, but according to your view of God, God is the author of sin.

 

[John146]

I'm going to simplify Jerome's fatalism, which today is known as Calvinism (the historical Roman Catholic view).

Before God created the heavens and the earth, He looked down through time and saw everyone He would ever make. He decided before He made anyone, that He would make some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell. When God eventually came to this earth in the person of Jesus Christ, He died on the cross only for those people He had decided He would take to heaven. Along the way God, by His irresistible grace, overthrew the people He had decided would be saved and, before they knew what happened, gave them a new birth.

No one else even missed out on being saved or knew what they were missing, for God's Holy Spirit never dealt with them; Jesus never shed any blood for them. God created them just to send them to hell. He wrought them for damnation to show how great and wonderful He is.

 

[Slayer]

I'm going to simplify Jerome's fatalism, which today is known as Calvinism (the historical Roman Catholic view).

Before God created the heavens and the earth, He looked down through time and saw everyone He would ever make. He decided before He made anyone, that He would make some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell. When God eventually came to this earth in the person of Jesus Christ, He died on the cross only for those people He had decided He would take to heaven. Along the way God, by His irresistible grace, overthrew the people He had decided would be saved and, before they knew what happened, gave them a new birth.

No one else even missed out on being saved or knew what they were missing, for God's Holy Spirit never dealt with them; Jesus never shed any blood for them. God created them just to send them to hell. He wrought them for damnation to show how great and wonderful He is.

You forgot one very important fact in the summary, the damned sinned against God their whole lives. Regardless of anything else, they sinned to their hearts content. They knew that God hates sin, yet the chose to sin against Him anyway.

Nobody can say that God is unjust, He has every right to punish sinners. He wrote His law on every mans heart so they are without excuse. He chose to leave them in their sin, the question should be "why did God chose to save anyone" since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The fact that He saved some, shows His love, mercy and compassion. We all deserve hell but He chose to save some, tat's His choice alone. Nobody has the right to question it.

 

[John146]

You forgot one very important fact in the summary, the damned sinned against God their whole lives. Regardless of anything else, they sinned to their hearts content. They knew that God hates sin, yet the chose to sin against Him anyway.

Nobody can say that God is unjust, He has every right to punish sinners. He wrote His law on every mans heart so they are without excuse. He chose to leave them in their sin, the question should be "why did God chose to save anyone" since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

The fact that He saved some, shows His love, mercy and compassion. We all deserve hell but He chose to save some, tat's His choice alone. Nobody has the right to question it.

Oh NO!!!! They didn't choose to sin, God ordained them to sin. They have no choice in the matter according to God's "sovereignty".

I know why God chose to save some...because "those" heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, believed upon that truth and called upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Once they call upon the name of the Lord, they were placed into God's elect, Jesus Christ, and were sealed for the future adoption, the redemption of the body.

 

[Slayer]

Oh NO!!!! They didn't choose to sin, God ordained them to sin. They have no choice in the matter according to God's "sovereignty".

I know why God chose to save some...because "those" heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, believed upon that truth and called upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Once they call upon the name of the Lord, they were placed into God's elect, Jesus Christ, and were sealed for the future adoption, the redemption of the body.

They chose to sin because they were born sinners and created without the ability to resist their sin nature.

Everyone hears the Word of God, but why is it that only some respond by believing it but most reject it as foolishness.

What do you think separates these two groups of people, you can't say it has anything to do with how smart the person is. We know that the greatest minds in the world, reject the Gospel as foolishness. So we can discount that factor, so it only leaves two options. Either God draws them to Himself or it's a chance game like a lottery, where people randomly chose to believe.

 

[trofimus]

God's sovereignity does not mean that God forces us like robots are forced by their programmed instructions. We would not be guilty, of course and this is not a biblical view.

On the other hand, our will and actions are not independent in the meaning that God does not control the outcome.

 

[Ralph-]

God created them, so He could have created them to believe if He wanted to.

He can do whatever he wants. That's not in debate. What he actually did is.

John the Baptist is the only one I know of that was pre-programmed by God to be a believer. Which, by the way, is why I think God said he is least in the kingdom of God.

Calvinism is a most meaningless gospel. I can't believe smart men think God crafted such a meaningless and cruel game when he created mankind.

 

[Ralph-]

I don't understand peoples theology that seems to make them think that all of Gods plans are contingent on stupid people making all these genius choices. The only time stupid people make genius choices is when God leads them to do so.

Nobody's discounting the necessary work of God in making the soil produce that which the soil can and wants to produce.

Salvation doesn't happen without God's intervention, but that hardly means a person plays no role in salvation occurring for them. This black or white thinking of the church is ridiculous. For some reason it's always gotta be all God, or all man with nothing possible in between.

 

[Slayer]

He can do whatever he wants. That's not in debate. What he actually did is.

John the Baptist is the only one I know of that was pre-programmed by God to be a believer. Which, by the way, is why I think God said he is least in the kingdom of God.

Calvinism is a most meaningless gospel. I can't believe smart men think God crafted such a meaningless and cruel game when he created mankind.

Yes it is hard for us to understand why God does things the way he does, I believe it's because our minds are so limited and small and sinful. So we are trying to fit Gods infinitely wise ways into our narrow limited understanding. There are just too many Bible verses that speak of God choosing His elect, we can't make them mean something else.

I know that predestination and election doesn't sound fair or logical, but it's there in black and white so we aren't in a position to disagree with God. We have been commanded to trust and obey Him in all that he does, everyone will eventually understand why God did what He did.

We will understand Him much better when we receive our perfect, sinless, glorified bodies and minds in the next life. Right now, we need to just accept everything He does and love Him for it, even if it appears to be harsh or unjust.

 

[rlm68]

1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



1. Thief upon the cross was not water baptized
2. Sinners who have death bed conversions typically are not water baptized.

Since we know what Christ said concerning water baptism, I wonder if He made exception for the thief, or made a provision, since He promised the thief to be in Paradise with Him that very day?

 

[Slayer]

1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



1. Thief upon the cross was not water baptized
2. Sinners who have death bed conversions typically are not water baptized.

Since we know what Christ said concerning water baptism, I wonder if He made exception for the thief, or made a provision, since He promised the thief to be in Paradise with Him that very day?

Yes He absolutely did make an exception in that case, Christ is not a rigid works based savior. He understands every situation, so He will judge everyone according to how much they have been given.

To whom much is given, much will be expected of him. There are plenty of believers trapped in false religions like Islam, who are looking to escape with their lives. The penalty for converting to Christianity is death in Islam.

I had a very hard time escaping Roman Catholicism, i lost my family. My mom is the only one who still talks to me. We should remember all those in the past who never had access to a Bible and they only heard a Roman Catholic Priest chanting in Latin so they had no idea what he was blabbing about. That's as close as they came to hearing the Gospel.

God won't judge a person on how well they know the Bible, we will be judged for how we lived our lives.

 

[garee]

It sounds to me like you believe God created man and then let him lose to do as he pleases, with no control over him. This doesn't sound like the God who is sovereign over all of His creation.

We were all born fallen sinners, as such no person can please God, the only way we can please Him is if His Spirit indwells us and leads us to follow His Son. The whole reason for salvation is to conform us into the image of His Son, so the more we become like His Son the more we can please Him.

All true believers will receive their glorified sinless bodies after they die, then they will be able to please god at all times. Until then it will be a daily struggle against the corrupt body of death.

If we are born dead in our sins and trespasses, how then can such a person cause themselves to repent and believe. God has to quicken the person and put the ability to believe in him, or he will remain dead in sin until his body dies.

Romans 7:24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I would agree. Its why our bodies we are born with are called bodies of this death. As with the parable of Lazarus dead for days with no possible human qualifier (free will) and words that moved "Lazarus rise" repented him giving him life just as the body of Adam lifeless spiritless body until God breather in the spirit of life. Its the second death that man must be concerned with. A person must be born again so that we can have a new spirit that will never die. As in all the works of God he must do the first works of turning us towards Him like Lazarus before a person can repent.

Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

 

[notuptome]

It sounds to me like you believe God created man and then let him lose to do as he pleases, with no control over him. This doesn't sound like the God who is sovereign over all of His creation.

We were all born fallen sinners, as such no person can please God, the only way we can please Him is if His Spirit indwells us and leads us to follow His Son. The whole reason for salvation is to conform us into the image of His Son, so the more we become like His Son the more we can please Him.

All true believers will receive their glorified sinless bodies after they die, then they will be able to please god at all times. Until then it will be a daily struggle against the corrupt body of death.

If we are born dead in our sins and trespasses, how then can such a person cause themselves to repent and believe. God has to quicken the person and put the ability to believe in him, or he will remain dead in sin until his body dies.

Sounds to me like you do not believe the word of Jesus.

Every man born into this world chooses to sin. He is not born with sin but chooses to sin. He must also choose to forsake his sin and receive Christ.

God is sovereign but does not need to manipulate every action of His creation. Love and especially Gods love is far greater than mans sin. This is evidenced in Christs sacrifice on the cross of Calvary.

Man is made in the image of God and marred by sin. One consequence of the fall was the imparting of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam knew only good until the fall. Now man must choose betwen good and evil. He must choose between Christ and sin.

Gods sovereignty is not threatened by mans free will and obligation to choose between light and darkness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger