Speaking in tongues

[Noose]

Both are true.


That's simply false.

Yes, both are true if taken on the face value but one is wrong when it comes to the intended use/function; Gifts are to profit all and the specific function of tongues was to be a sign to the unbelievers. If a tongue fails in it's function then self edification is achieved (true but wrong) - because if i understand the gospel and fail to transfer my understanding to the unbeliever in a language they understand, then my understanding is unfruitful. This is self edification because the understanding remains with me and it is very wrong. This is what Paul says uttering mysteries- they are mysteries to the listener because the listener doesn't understand a thing.

1 Cor 14:9 Paul recommends speaking intelligible words with your tongue (not interpreting). I don't know how you are going to pull that because your idea of tongues is just words with no meaning.

 

[shrume]

Yes, both are true if taken on the face value but one is wrong when it comes to the intended use/function;

Neither is wrong.

Gifts are to profit all

And the manifestation of tongues does profit all when it's interpreted. When a person speaks in tongues to himself, it edifies him (1 Cor 14:4).

and the specific function of tongues was to be a sign to the unbelievers.

No the specific function of tongues is for prayer, edification, giving of thanks, speaking to God, and more.

If a tongue fails in it's function then self edification is achieved (true but wrong)

Since toy started with a false assertion, your conclusion will be false.

- because if i understand the gospel and fail to transfer my understanding to the unbeliever in a language they understand, then my understanding is unfruitful.

When you speak in tongues your understanding is always unfruitful unless you interpret. And if you hear someone else speak in tongues, your understanding will be unfruitful unless he interprets.

This is self edification because the understanding remains with me and it is very wrong.

When a person speaks in tongues, his understanding does not "remain in him", it is unfruitful.

This is what Paul says uttering mysteries- they are mysteries to the listener because the listener doesn't understand a thing.

When a person speaks in tongues, that is true (1 Cor 14:2).

1 Cor 14:9 Paul recommends speaking intelligible words with your tongue (not interpreting).

Right. And if a person does want to speak in tongues, he must interpret (1 Cor 14:5, 13, 15).

I don't know how you are going to pull that because your idea of tongues is just words with no meaning.

Speaking in tongues is speaking a language you do not know or understand (1 Cor 14:2, 14).

 

[Noose]

No, the Corinthians were in fact speaking in tongues. Paul gave them instruction on how the manifestation of tongues is to be used in public. If a person wants to speak in tongues out loud in public, he must interpret. Otherwise, he is to speak silently to himself, and to God.

If they were spirit filled and speaking in tongues, then there's no need for the spirit of God(through Paul) to instruct the spirit of God (in them) for the spirit of God doesn't cause confusion. Truly i tell you, the Corinthians were doing something close to what is being done today.

Tongues are supposed to be a miracle;
For example: I know the gospel and i preach it in Swahili to Swahili listeners even though i don't understand Swahili. As much as i try speaking or passing what i understand to the next person in a language that i'm comfortable with, the spirit changes it miraculously so that what comes out is different from my original tongue for the benefit of the listener, not myself. Not only in spreading the gospel but also in prayers because when one or two agree, God is in their midst and they are built.

If i fail to pass my understanding to them, because i started speaking or praying in Spanish to a Swahili congregation, then this is called self edification.

The idea of tongues today is something else, totally different because we are living in perilous times. Don't think that by speaking things that you don't know, your are being edified- if that were possible, then even the congregation can be edified by what they don't understand (tongues) in the same manner as you are edified- why not?

 

[Noose]

No the specific function of tongues is for prayer, edification, giving of thanks, speaking to God, and more.

It really doesn't matter what you do with the tongue; whether you pray/sing/give thanks/and more, it is meant to be a sign for the unbeliever not the speaker.

1 Cor 14:
21In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”e
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

 

[shrume]

If they were spirit filled and speaking in tongues, then there's no need for the spirit of God(through Paul) to instruct the spirit of God (in them) for the spirit of God doesn't cause confusion.

Why are there teachers in the body of Christ?

Truly i tell you, the Corinthians were doing something close to what is being done today.

Many Pentecostal churches are. Everybody speaks in tongues and nobody interprets. They need to read 1 Cor 14.

Tongues are supposed to be a miracle;

No they aren't. Tongues are a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For example: I know the gospel and i preach it in Swahili to Swahili listeners even though i don't understand Swahili. As much as i try speaking or passing what i understand to the next person in a language that i'm comfortable with, the spirit changes it miraculously so that what comes out is different from my original tongue for the benefit of the listener, not myself. Not only in spreading the gospel but also in prayers because when one or two agree, God is in their midst and they are built.

Now that WOULD be a miracle. lol. But that almost never ever happens, which is why when a person speaks in tongues in public, he must interpret.

If i fail to pass my understanding to them, because i started speaking or praying in Spanish to a Swahili congregation, then this is called self edification.

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. There is no understanding to pass along (1 Cor 14:2, 14).

The idea of tongues today is something else, totally different because we are living in perilous times. Don't think that by speaking things that you don't know, your are being edified

You are flatly contradicting Paul:
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

- if that were possible, then even the congregation can be edified by what they don't understand (tongues) in the same manner as you are edified- why not?

Again, you are presenting a false equivocation.

 

[shrume]

It really doesn't matter what you do with the tongue; whether you pray/sing/give thanks/and more, it is meant to be a sign for the unbeliever not the speaker.

That is not the primary reason for tongues.

1 Cor 14:
21In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”e
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

Yes, tongues should be a sign to unbelievers.

 

[Noose]

Why are there teachers in the body of Christ?

Teachers are there today because their basis is not God. And if not God, then who? don't you know satan reigns over the world today? Why should we have teachers if God has already declared this:

Jer 31:
31“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod them,e ”
declares the Lord.
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

This also applies to prophets/Miracle workers/Faith healers/Tongue speakers. The Holy spirit who indwells us has taken over these roles and He function within us. If i'm sick, He heals me/ If i need understanding, i already have it/

Many Pentecostal churches are. Everybody speaks in tongues and nobody interprets. They need to read 1 Cor 14.

It is not us vs them- it is them and you and everybody else. You can not point fingers, None is right. The last shall be the first and the first shall be the last.

 

[Noose]

That is not the primary reason for tongues.


Yes, tongues should be a sign to unbelievers.

Usually there is no primary and secondary reason when it comes to gifts of the Holy spirit, they are for benefiting others and building the church.

 

[calibob]

There is a time for both. On Penticost there was a time to deliver the message to the masses,speaking in tongues was one of the methods used. There also comes a time to recharge and eddify ourselfs. Pray in a closet and have some alone time with God nothing wrong with that either, just don't be like the hypocrites and make a show out of it. You guys remind my of an old car with one wheel stuck in the mud. making a lot of noise, slinging mud but not getting anywhere.

 

[Noose]

There is a time for both. On Penticost there was a time to deliver the message to the masses,speaking in tongues was one of the methods used. There also comes a time to recharge and eddify ourselfs. Pray in a closet and have some alone time with God nothing wrong with that either, just don't be like the hypocrites and make a show out of it. You guys remind my of an old car with one wheel stuck in the mud. making a lot of noise, slinging mud but not getting anywhere.

And what difference does it make when you pray in a new tongue rather than your original language? isn't prayer a petition to God of something that is well known to yourself?
I think many are confusing tongues with:

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Truly truly i tell you, there's no such thing as praying in tongues in your closet; You must pray with understanding. The spirit will help you yes but only where words have failed you.

 

[shrume]

Teachers are there today because their basis is not God.

OK, this is ludicrous...

And if not God, then who? don't you know satan reigns over the world today? Why should we have teachers if God has already declared this:

Jer 31:
31“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod them,e ”
declares the Lord.
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

That has not happened yet.

Paul wrote Eph 4:11 long after the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was first given. People need to be taught. This occurred after the day of Pentecost:

Acts 8:
30) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

This also applies to prophets/Miracle workers/Faith healers/Tongue speakers. The Holy spirit who indwells us has taken over these roles and He function within us. If i'm sick, He heals me/ If i need understanding, i already have it/

When did this supposedly happen, Noose? Paul wrote 1 Cor long after the day of Pentecost.

It is not us vs them- it is them and you and everybody else. You can not point fingers, None is right. The last shall be the first and the first shall be the last.

You're almost incoherent.

 

[calibob]

And what difference does it make when you pray in a new tongue rather than your original language?
I think many are confusing tongues with:

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Truly truly i tell you, there's no such thing as praying in tongues in your closet; You must pray with understanding. The spirit will help you yes but only where words have failed you.

It dosn't matter to me, and God surely knows what what we mean to say but some people find it more rewarding, enlightening or whatever and I'm not going to call them liars even though I don't understand it. It's just something that has never happened to me. I've never walked on water either. So in the sermon on the mount when the Lord gave us instructions on how to pray, It was to be between us and him. Nobody's business what language we use. We may not even know the words to express our inner groanings but the spirit does. I think that's what people mean by the term prayer language.

 

[calibob]

The Lord didn't say 'repeat after me' he said when you pray, pray like this, 'Our Father...'

 

[1ofthem]

Amen....I've never spoke in tongues myself. I guess I have never actually sought after it or asked for it like I should. But I still believe it is true and represented by the scripture.

I've been around others who do speak in tongues and have had prophesies that I know came from God because there is no way another person, who did not know me or anything about me, could read my heart like that and know exactly what I was thinking and I also saw every word that was spoken to me come to pass in my life. So just like it says in Corinthians I was and still am convinced that it is true and of God.

I also know that not all things that say they are of God are really of God and I know to try the spirits because I also have had an experience with some things ( a fake prophesy) that was not of God and I knew for sure that it wasn't from God. The Spirit of God will not let us be misled or deceived if we pray and seek his counsel.

 

[CS1]

Amen....I've never spoke in tongues myself. I guess I have never actually sought after it or asked for it like I should. But I still believe it is true and represented by the scripture.

I've been around others who do speak in tongues and have had prophesies that I know came from God because there is no way another person, who did not know me or anything about me, could read my heart like that and know exactly what I was thinking and I also saw every word that was spoken to me come to pass in my life. So just like it says in Corinthians I was and still am convinced that it is true and of God.

I also know that not all things that say they are of God are really of God and I know to try the spirits because I also have had an experience with some things ( a fake prophesy) that was not of God and I knew for sure that it wasn't from God. The Spirit of God will not let us be misled or deceived if we pray and seek his counsel.

the issue is the over focus on the gift instead of the Giver . John gospel tells us that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Ghost which Jesus said would happen in Acts 1:8 . Just ask Jesus to baptize you in the Holy Spirit raise your hands and accept it by faith . it that simple the only requirement is to be saved . it will not save you , it will not make you more saved, it will empower you to be a witness as Jesus said in Acts 1:8

Thats it.

 

[1ofthem]

the issue is the over focus on the gift instead of the Giver . John gospel tells us that Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Ghost which Jesus said would happen in Acts 1:8 . Just ask Jesus to baptize you in the Holy Spirit raise your hands and accept it by faith . it that simple the only requirement is to be saved . it will not save you , it will not make you more saved, it will empower you to be a witness as Jesus said in Acts 1:8

Thats it.

Amen...and thanks for the encouragement.

 

[yellowcanary]

Speaking in tongues is done through the power of the Holy Spirit, but it is not a miracle. Any Christian can do it, and God would like all Christians to do it (1 Cor 14:5).

Pentecost .... supernaturally speaking a language (tongue) previously unknown/unlearned by the speaker thru the divine intervention of God's Holy Spirit. Was it a miracle then ... or are you just referencing what many call tongues today ?

 

[RickyZ]

Jesus walks into a new town and is met by the people and their leaders. "Yer that Jesus dude we've ben hearin about, ain'tcha? We don't believe them hyspters, and what they say about yer miracles and healings and such. We think it's all poppycock. We wanna see medical records, doctor's affidavits, proof that yer in-network ... ".

Mark 6:5 "and He could do no miracles there ..."

 

[RickyZ]

And what difference does it make when you pray in a new tongue rather than your original language? isn't prayer a petition to God of something that is well known to yourself?
I think many are confusing tongues with:

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Truly truly i tell you, there's no such thing as praying in tongues in your closet; You must pray with understanding. The spirit will help you yes but only where words have failed you.

Evidently you skipped over my explanation for this?

 

[CS1]

Teachers are there today because their basis is not God. And if not God, then who? don't you know satan reigns over the world today? Why should we have teachers if God has already declared this:

Jer 31:
31“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod them,e ”
declares the Lord.
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

This also applies to prophets/Miracle workers/Faith healers/Tongue speakers. The Holy spirit who indwells us has taken over these roles and He function within us. If i'm sick, He heals me/ If i need understanding, i already have it/




It is not us vs them- it is them and you and everybody else. You can not point fingers, None is right. The last shall be the first and the first shall be the last.

lol this is error in thinking in ref to teachers . i that is the case then everyone here opinion and what they are saying in context to scripture is meaningless . Eph 4:11 says these gifts known as the domata or equipping gifts are give for the perfecting of the saints . That is what it states. The Writing of Paul were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to edify the body, and instruct them. I is safe to say each of us were taught by one of these gifts if NOT in the context of the spiritual then it was done in the secular.