You missed the implication that your point is irrelevant to my challenge to Roger. Your snark is misplaced. Jesus and the disciples proved their claims by their actions; Roger can't do that.
Speaking in tongues
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You missed the implication that your point is irrelevant to my challenge to Roger. Your snark is misplaced. Jesus and the disciples proved their claims by their actions; Roger can't do that.
I am not Jesus. Jesus is my Savior but I am not Jesus. I stand on the word of God and the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Honestly Roger, when you write things like this, I wonder about your comprehension. Jude writes, "Build yourselves up in the most holy faith...." What part of that sounds like "not a good thing? What in the context gives you that idea?
As to the keying error, "I don't care who you are, that's funny right there."
My post to yellowcanary wasn't a criticism of you, but a statement of fact which is true for all of us... as anonymous contributors to an internet discussion forum.
I'm still waiting for you to defend your assertion that "edification requires knowledge".
I was addressing praying in the Holy Spirit. Praying in the Holy Spirit is not praying in tongues. Build yourself up in the faith is accomplished by reading and studying the word of God. There is no edification without knowledge.Honestly Roger, when you write things like this, I wonder about your comprehension. Jude writes, "Build yourselves up in the most holy faith...." What part of that sounds like "not a good thing? What in the context gives you that idea?
As to the keying error, "I don't care who you are, that's funny right there."
I'm not saying that you or anyone in this thread is a natural man but look at the passage in 1 Cor regarding the natural man being unable to receive the things of the Spirit. The natural man by virtue of his estranged position from God cannot receive the things of God. he must be born again to receive the things of the Spirit. The born again man has knowledge of Christ and is able to receive things from God through the Holy Spirit. Now without knowledge of Christ no man can be edified by the Holy Spirit.
This is a simple illustration of knowledge being essential to Christian edification. I know it is impossible for you to read anything I write without bias it is common to all of us but read what the bible declares and cease from endeavoring to be edified by the unknown.
The man praying in an unknown tongue must know the tongue in which he is praying. Others around him may not know the tongue but he must else he cannot be edified.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You have shown that you have a good deal of knowledge in the past so I am quite surprised that you would assert that edification can be attained without knowledge.
Prove to me that you are edified without knowledge.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes, that is the thread topic. However, you made the statement, "Self edification is not a good thing" which is what I challenged. Please defend this specific statement.
You have not established the bolded assertion to anyone's satisfaction but your own. Therefore basing arguments on it is fallacious.
Nobody has claimed that "without knowledge of Christ no man can be edified by the Holy Spirit". Nobody has claimed that edification can happen in the complete absence of any relevant knowledge. You're making strawman arguments which have no value to this discussion. Further, you are asserting that edification only can occur in the form of increased knowledge. Frankly, that's a very limited view of what edification encompasses, and the limitation is hindering your understanding of this topic.
More strawmen. You keep misrepresenting my position, and frankly it gets old.
These assertions simply do not line up with Scripture.
You defend your assertion. I'll defend my own assertions. I don't need to defend the antithesis of your assertion; that is a burden-of-proof reversal, and I won't play that game.
It is inane to contend that edification is accomplished without knowledge. Self edification of this nature must by it's nature be unfruitful. 1 Cor 14:14 clearly shows that prayer without knowledge is unfruitful.
There is only scripture declaring we are to pray in the Holy Spirit. There is no scripture that declares that prayer in the Holy Spirit is prayer in tongues. You have placed the fallacy into the argument.
It may appear limited but it is scriptural. Nothingness can only produce more nothingness.
Perhaps it would behoove you to clearly present your position.
Again you are incorrect.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You play your own game. I know you cannot defend the indefensible any more than I can without going beyond the rules of CC.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Only in your narrow understanding of edification.
No, 1 Cor 14:14 does not clearly show that.
At this point I am addressing the nature of edification. Once that is settled we'll get back to the nature of praying in the Spirit/tongues.
Jude 20-21, after describing unsaved people, says, "But you, beloved" as in, "In contrast to those unsaved people, you who are favoured by God". Then he says, "building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
There is no possible way that "building yourselves up" can soundly be interpreted as negative. It is the same Greek root word used as in 1 Cor 14:4. It is a good thing, period. The only caveat that might be put against it is that 1 Cor 14 declares that edification of the Church is better... more good than the good of self-edification.
Your refusal to defend your assertion frees me to ignore it completely as irrelevant. If you think this is only a game, why are you playing?
Very funny.
Ok deny the obvious.
Ok if you say so.
Then you force the only possible interpretation of verse 4 to be that the speaker knows what he is speaking but his audience does not. That is how he is edified. He cannot be edified without knowing what he is speaking. Jude provides no evidence that praying in the Holy Spirit is praying in tongues. So we'll take your good of edification and see how it fits the text. Not a problem.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Then you will permit me the same liberty. You cannot deny the obvious nor should you.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
all one has to do is look at your 2 1/2 paragraphs here and see you provided no Biblical context only an insult to what is my understanding of 1 for 12-14 contextually . You used gen 11 to read into it the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (tongues) and were not able to prove your point then you insult. I am not the one who has an issue with what the Bible records as the "Gifts of the Holy" in 1cor 12 to 14. Now do not agree with 1cor 12-14 and that is ok however, why do you result to insults because I see 1 cor chapters 12 to 14 as unit chapters which every Biblical scholar says they are? I wish you were able to provide the actual context of 1cor 12-14 Lord knows you had more then enough opportunities . You suggest I and other have inabilities. I cause you to remember many threads ago IT was you who will not say you were ever corrected Biblically ever. Not me
. I have stated I have been wrong and could be wrong however, the context of the "Gifts of the Holy" are Biblical because they're taught . we see them in operation through out the Book of Acts; emphasized in the Letters of Paul the Apostle and others. They wrote as they were Led to do so by the Holy Spirit. Again it is not I who has an issue , I am not the one who refuses to admit to ever being corrected.And That is a very telling discernment about one who studies the word of God.
Don't take my word for it :
Here are some verses to consider . I think all should take heed -all including me & you
Titus 3:10-11
Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Romans 16:17
Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
Matthew 18:15-17
"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collecto
That does not follow in my position. It follows in yours because you're stuck with the narrow idea that edification requires understanding, which is not stated in Scripture and which you have not proven to anyone but yourself.
You keep asserting that without having proven it. Prove it first without circular reasoning and without violating Scripture.
Let's resolve the question of edification THEN we'll discuss tongues. Until we do that, your position is circular.
The building up in the faith is the faith of Christ as that which comes by hearing God , It is not of our own "one self" unless any man boast is false empty pride . We build our selves..... the whole church... not one self . We are the representative glory of God not seen . For what do have that we have not freely received and if we have received it why would we boast as if we did not ?
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.1 Peter2 :5
Perhaps you would consider this topic in light of the verse I have put forth: Jude 20.
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I had an acquaintance years ago who we'll call 'Bob', friend of a friend kind of thing. I didn't know much about him but I knew he was mad at God. He and his girlfriend had been considering becoming Christians, but before they could decide she died. Bob was angry that, if there was a God, He would take her before she had made a decision.
So one night I'm alone praying and my prayers come to Bob. So I pray in English, Lord, I lift up Bob, and his anger and yadayadayada everything I know to pray about Bob, in English.
But then, my mind and heart stay on Bob, but I start praying in my tongue. And while I'm doing that I get this vision of these legions of angels rushing into a cave or tunnel ... One after another after another after another ... flying into this cave.
The next time I talked to Bob, I told him about this vision. He got silent, then said his girlfriend had died in a car wreck under a freeway bridge. I said maybe he shouldn't be so sure she hadn't decided.
And while I only talked to him once after that, I'm pretty sure he took that message to heart.
Pray in your understanding.
Pray in the Spirit, and receive understanding.
Intercede directly with something you have no earthly knowledge of
Be edified by the humble use of yourself to edify another.
Now, Roger, I advise you to consider the lessons of Mark 3 and Luke 12, and THINK VERY CAREFULLY before you respond.
So one night I'm alone praying and my prayers come to Bob. So I pray in English, Lord, I lift up Bob, and his anger and yadayadayada everything I know to pray about Bob, in English.
But then, my mind and heart stay on Bob, but I start praying in my tongue. And while I'm doing that I get this vision of these legions of angels rushing into a cave or tunnel ... One after another after another after another ... flying into this cave.
The next time I talked to Bob, I told him about this vision. He got silent, then said his girlfriend had died in a car wreck under a freeway bridge. I said maybe he shouldn't be so sure she hadn't decided.
And while I only talked to him once after that, I'm pretty sure he took that message to heart.
Pray in your understanding.
Pray in the Spirit, and receive understanding.
Intercede directly with something you have no earthly knowledge of
Be edified by the humble use of yourself to edify another.
Now, Roger, I advise you to consider the lessons of Mark 3 and Luke 12, and THINK VERY CAREFULLY before you respond.