Speaking in tongues

[shrume]

I've been in agreement with God the whole time.

You have proven that to be not true.

You have said Paul said things he did not say.

You have said Paul did not say things that he did say.

You have made wild claims with no scriptural backing whatsoever (for example: "tongues are unbiblical in the new covenant").

You simply do not understand what speaking in tongues is, Roger.

 

[shrume]

Ok you are so far away from any reasonable definition of tongues that you cannot get back to biblical tongues on a jet plane.

Prove your assertion with scripture.

Tongues are and always have been languages.

Agreed. When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking a language he does not know. He does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).

The only other tongues are the organ in your mouth by which you produce languages.

OK.

Paul did say something about Gentiles being carried away with dumb idols. I wonder what he meant?

Some gentiles used to curse their gods when they wouldn't "behave", and in 1 Cor 12:3, Paul was letting them know that anyone speaking by the spirit of God (speaking in tongues) was not cursing God.

1 Cor 12:
2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Kind of low opinion of Gentiles.

Now what are you proposing, Roger? That Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, had a low opinion of the people he was sent to?

 

[notuptome]

Prove your assertion with scripture.


Agreed. When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking a language he does not know. He does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).


OK.


Some gentiles used to curse their gods when they wouldn't "behave", and in 1 Cor 12:3, Paul was letting them know that anyone speaking by the spirit of God (speaking in tongues) was not cursing God.

1 Cor 12:
2) Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Now what are you proposing, Roger? That Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, had a low opinion of the people he was sent to?

You know that the Jews of the time considered Gentiles lower than dogs.

Of course if they did not know what they were saying in tongues then they could have been saying anything. Perhaps their mothers favorite recipe for kosher pickles.

Knowledge through nothingness. Better chance of the devil repenting.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

You know that the Jews of the time considered Gentiles lower than dogs.

Many did. Are you suggesting that’s what Paul thought, even as he was writing his epistles?

Of course if they did not know what they were saying in tongues then they could have been saying anything.

They were not cursing Jesus (1 Cor 12:3). And according to the records in Acts, when people speak in tongues, they are speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God. And 1 Cor 14:17 says they are giving thanks well.

Knowledge through nothingness. Better chance of the devil repenting.

What is “knowledge through nothingness”?

 

[notuptome]

Many did. Are you suggesting that’s what Paul thought, even as he was writing his epistles?

It certainly colored Peters expectations until God gave him a vision on the subject. Paul was Hebrew of Hebrews so I suspect he was often frustrated by the thinking or lack thereof in the Gentiles.

They were not cursing Jesus (1 Cor 12:3). And according to the records in Acts, when people speak in tongues, they are speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God. And 1 Cor 14:17 says they are giving thanks well.

That is only known if there is interpretation. You are still saying that unknown tongues edify. Contradiction much?

What is “knowledge through nothingness”?

Exactly what I have been asking and you have been contending. That self edification because you do not know what you are saying or praying.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[yellowcanary]

... let me answer your repeated claim that with no understanding personal tongues are useless.

First, let's context 1 Cor 14. We have to acknowledge that prophecy is different than a 'personal' tongue. Both are clearly delineated in 1 Cor 14. (I have a color coded blog post illustrating the differences, but haven't actually looked for blogs in the new format and can't find it at the moment. But you've seen - and ignored - it before). Prophecy is done in public with an interpretation. Personal is spoken in private directly between you and God. There is a time and place for each, and while we should all seek to do them, it's better we not do them at all than violate those time and place restrictions. Because violation of those time and place restrictions result in ... well, you. That is the whole lesson that is the context of 1 Cor 14.

1 Cor 14:13 For this reason the one who speaks in a (personal) tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

How simple is this? Ask God to reveal what you are praying about. At first I didn't know. I asked Him to tell me. He did, and also explained 1 Cor 14:15 -

15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Again, this is not some mythical thing. I pray in English and I pray in my tongue. I start out with "Lord, Roger doesn't understand, help him understand, help me be clear for him, and so on, speaking all the things my mind can think about that might bind you and help you open up and find clarity. BUT - there are things going on with you that my mind doesn't know about. How do I speak to those things? That's when the Holy Spirit takes over, praying about the mysteries that surround you that I don't know about. In my heart, in my mind, oh I understand that I am praying for you. It's just in way that lets me speak things in the Name of Jesus that I don't know about.

But ... after you've been given the understanding that you prayed for as well, you now know everything that you didn't know previously about Roger ... because the Holy Spirit clarified and gave you the understanding you were lacking concerning Roger's need(s) ? Simple indeed ! Tell us all what Roger's lacking . BTW ... where do you find "personal" tongue (language) in God's Word ?

 

[CS1]

Ok it is obvious that God is able to understand any and all languages. God does not require an interpreter. The question remains how do you understand a tongue you do not know? You cannot be edified without knowing what it is that you are praying. This really is not a trick question but an simple inquiry.

A Christian can speak to God without an unknown tongue. We have direct access to God our Father. You are creating a mystique that is wholly unnecessary. The truth is that the Holy Spirit did not write the passage in 1 Cor 14:1-2 so you would seek to speak to God in unknown tongues. Else why would the writer in Hebrews tell us to come boldly to the throne of grace? The only means by which a man can edify himself is if he does understand the tongue in which he speaks. His audience does not but he must. For his audience to understand someone must interpret. Through the interpretation all then are able to understand and be edified.

All of the word of God is authoritative but the interpretations of men are often mixed and confused.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

there is not question . The issue is your willingness to accept what is in context to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not my job to make you agree . But you will not change the word of God as it has been written on this topic.

 

[garee]

They were not cursing Jesus (1 Cor 12:3). And according to the records in Acts, when people speak in tongues, they are speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God. And 1 Cor 14:17 says they are giving thanks well.

Yes wonderfull works of God's word, prophecy in a language they could easly understand. Giving thanks be cause they understood prophecy

 

[notuptome]

there is not question . The issue is your willingness to accept what is in context to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not my job to make you agree . But you will not change the word of God as it has been written on this topic.

You have an incorrect understanding of me as a Christian. It is clear that what you accuse me of doing is just what you are doing. I have no problems with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You simply impose that bias on the discussion.

You may wrongly argue that tongues have not ceased despite what is written in 1 Cor 13:8 but that is not what we are discussing. You insist that you can be edified by nothing. No understanding or knowledge of what you are saying or praying is edification by nothing. Every speaker must know what he or she is saying. You cannot speak without knowledge of the language you are speaking. Those around you may not know what you are saying and require an interpreter but the speaker must know.

You as well cannot change what is written. You also cannot show that what you do as far a tongues are in fact biblical. You may claim to speak in tongues but they are only biblical if they match Gods word. In Acts we have spontaneous utterances when a newly saved individual receives the Holy Spirit. We know that they spoke and others heard them and understood them. You will not state that what you do matches that scenario. We have no evidence of people speaking in tongues as part of a worship service. In fact we have a prohibition of people speaking in the assembly if there is no one there to interpret. We have an admonition to prophecy that all might be built up in the faith. Unknown tongues cannot produce that effect without interpretation.

Do not dismiss me because of your inability to understand the scriptures without imposing a predetermined bias on the interpretation. You dismiss the greater portion of scripture again because it the scripture challenges your understanding of tongues. Your position denies the realities of Genesis, Isaiah, and numerous other scriptures. You must keep the three chapters in Corinthians in a bubble or your whole argument falls apart.

I cannot compromise the scriptures and you will not give up your tongues. We are at an impasse that only God can resolve.

When you actually discover the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14 it will be a great day. You must read the NT through the eyes of first century Jews to fully appreciate what dramas are at play in these scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

You have nothing to support your contention. Edification does require knowledge. You cannot be edified on nothingness. Like eating air no matter how much you consume you will starve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's up to you to prove the bolded assertion from Scripture.

 

[yellowcanary]

It's up to you to prove the bolded assertion from Scripture.

Jesus Christ nor the apostles ever used the misplacing the burden of proof fallacy. Quite the opposite. Never were any asked to believe Christ's claims because they couldn't be "proven false". He proved Himself over and over again.

 

[shrume]

...I have no problems with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You don't understand what speaking in tongues is, Roger.

You may wrongly argue that tongues have not ceased despite what is written in 1 Cor 13:8 but that is not what we are discussing.

There is no problem with 1 Cor 13:8. It says tongues shall cease. And they shall. It is your wrong assertion to believe that they already have.

You insist that you can be edified by nothing. No understanding or knowledge of what you are saying or praying is edification by nothing.

The Bible says that when a person speaks in tongues, he is edified (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).

Every speaker must know what he or she is saying. You cannot speak without knowledge of the language you are speaking. Those around you may not know what you are saying and require an interpreter but the speaker must know.

That is a flat denial of what 1 Cor 14:2 and 14 say.

You as well cannot change what is written.

You have tried. You stated that "in the New Covenant tongues is unbiblical". There is no scripture that states such a thing. Your statement was not biblical.

You also cannot show that what you do as far a tongues are in fact biblical.

We have, you choose not to accept it.

You may claim to speak in tongues but they are only biblical if they match Gods word.

That's right.

In Acts we have spontaneous utterances when a newly saved individual receives the Holy Spirit.

Where does the Bible say "spontaneous utterances"? And where does it say that it's only for newly saved individuals? Paul said "by revelation" that he wants all Christians to speak in tongues. He was writing to the church at Corinth, people who were already saved.

We know that they spoke and others heard them and understood them.

That is correct. The languages the apostles were speaking were the languages of others present. That is not guaranteed, and almost never happens, which is why Paul says that whenever tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.

You will not state that what you do matches that scenario.

I will.

We have no evidence of people speaking in tongues as part of a worship service.

Paul gave instruction on how tongues are to be used in a worship service in 1 Cor 14.

In fact we have a prohibition of people speaking in the assembly if there is no one there to interpret.

First, the person who speaks in tongues is to be the one to interpret (1 Cor 14:5, 13). Second, if people do not want to interpret, they are to speak in tongues to themselves, and to God (1 Cor 14:28).

We have an admonition to prophecy that all might be built up in the faith.

That's right. But don't you believe that prophesy ceased too?

Unknown tongues cannot produce that effect without interpretation.

Which is precisely why Paul says that when tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.

Do not dismiss me because of your inability to understand the scriptures without imposing a predetermined bias on the interpretation.

That is precisely what you are doing, Roger. You're so certain that tongues ceased that you can't even read and understand 1 Cor 4:114 as it is written.

You dismiss the greater portion of scripture again because it the scripture challenges your understanding of tongues.

You dismiss the scriptures that talk about speaking in tongues. You simply do not believe them.

Your position denies the realities of Genesis, Isaiah, and numerous other scriptures.

There is absolutely nothing about the manifestation of speaking in tongues in Genesis, Isaiah, or ANY other book in the OT.

You must keep the three chapters in Corinthians in a bubble or your whole argument falls apart.

Those three chapters contain about the only information in the Bible on speaking in tongues. It is talked about in Acts, but there are not many specifics. It is alluded to in Eph 6:18 and Jude 20.

I cannot compromise the scriptures and you will not give up your tongues.

You constantly compromise the scriptures. You have said Paul said things he did not say, and said he did not say things that he did.

We are at an impasse that only God can resolve.

Which He will do. You will be shown your error.

When you actually discover the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14 it will be a great day.

The context of 1 Cor 12-14 is operating the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit, focusing on tongues, interpretation, and prophesy, primarily in meetings.

You must read the NT through the eyes of first century Jews to fully appreciate what dramas are at play in these scriptures.

That's just more Roger filler text.

Good night.

 

[Dino246]

Jesus Christ nor the apostles ever used the misplacing the burden of proof fallacy. Quite the opposite. Never were any asked to believe Christ's claims because they couldn't be "proven false". He proved Himself over and over again.

And your point is...?

 

[yellowcanary]

And your point is...?

If you need to ask what my point is, this is a futile endeavour.

 

[notuptome]

You don't understand what speaking in tongues is, Roger.


There is no problem with 1 Cor 13:8. It says tongues shall cease. And they shall. It is your wrong assertion to believe that they already have.


The Bible says that when a person speaks in tongues, he is edified (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).


That is a flat denial of what 1 Cor 14:2 and 14 say.


You have tried. You stated that "in the New Covenant tongues is unbiblical". There is no scripture that states such a thing. Your statement was not biblical.


We have, you choose not to accept it.


That's right.


Where does the Bible say "spontaneous utterances"? And where does it say that it's only for newly saved individuals? Paul said "by revelation" that he wants all Christians to speak in tongues. He was writing to the church at Corinth, people who were already saved.


That is correct. The languages the apostles were speaking were the languages of others present. That is not guaranteed, and almost never happens, which is why Paul says that whenever tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.


I will.


Paul gave instruction on how tongues are to be used in a worship service in 1 Cor 14.


First, the person who speaks in tongues is to be the one to interpret (1 Cor 14:5, 13). Second, if people do not want to interpret, they are to speak in tongues to themselves, and to God (1 Cor 14:28).


That's right. But don't you believe that prophesy ceased too?


Which is precisely why Paul says that when tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.


That is precisely what you are doing, Roger. You're so certain that tongues ceased that you can't even read and understand 1 Cor 4:114 as it is written.


You dismiss the scriptures that talk about speaking in tongues. You simply do not believe them.


There is absolutely nothing about the manifestation of speaking in tongues in Genesis, Isaiah, or ANY other book in the OT.


Those three chapters contain about the only information in the Bible on speaking in tongues. It is talked about in Acts, but there are not many specifics. It is alluded to in Eph 6:18 and Jude 20.


You constantly compromise the scriptures. You have said Paul said things he did not say, and said he did not say things that he did.


Which He will do. You will be shown your error.


The context of 1 Cor 12-14 is operating the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit, focusing on tongues, interpretation, and prophesy, primarily in meetings.


That's just more Roger filler text.

Good night.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

It's up to you to prove the bolded assertion from Scripture.

Edification comes by reading and believing Gods word. You learn the word and the Holy Spirit gives understanding. From that understanding you receive wisdom in the word.

Discipleship is disciplining the heart and mind through the word of God. We begin as babes but are expected to grow into mature laborers fitted for the Lords use. We crawl but progress to walk and then to run. None of these happen without knowledge.

Christians are to grow. Nothing grows without nurture and care. To have faith we need the word of God. If the pages of the bible were blank we could have no faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

Edification comes by reading and believing Gods word.

It also comes by speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).

You learn the word and the Holy Spirit gives understanding. From that understanding you receive wisdom in the word.

Discipleship is disciplining the heart and mind through the word of God. We begin as babes but are expected to grow into mature laborers fitted for the Lords use. We crawl but progress to walk and then to run. None of these happen without knowledge.

You need to gain knowledge concerning the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Christians are to grow. Nothing grows without nurture and care. To have faith we need the word of God. If the pages of the bible were blank we could have no faith.

The pages of the Bible are not blank.

1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[garee]

You don't understand what speaking in tongues is, Roger.

We must be careful on how we hear what the Spirit says to us freely giving us ears to hear Him.

Scripture defines scripture .


Tongues... God with stammering lips (mocking) brining new prophecy in other languages other than Hebrew alone. A sign of God mocking the Jews that mocked him . They refusing to hear prophecy in exchange for a law of their fathers (oral tradition of men .

The very foundation of the tongues doctrine of God must not be ignored in place of; I need a outward eveidence to prove a person is being filled with the spirit as in never full .

Christian are filled from the moment they are given the faith of Christ needed to believe God not seen . Christ our confidence who begins the good work in us finishes it to the end.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. "Wherefore" hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:11-15

You may wrongly argue that tongues have not ceased despite what is written in 1 Cor 13:8 but that is not what we are discussing.

It is a integral part of it, ( hearing God ).

Seeing God is no longer brining any new prophecy (the word of God) .He has set a seal and applies a warning not to add or subtract now that we have the whole or perfect .

There is no problem with 1 Cor 13:8. It says tongues shall cease. And they shall. It is your wrong assertion to believe that they already have.

Can we go above the perfect, as that which is written ? The Catholic think so and call it private revelations .

You insist that you can be edified by nothing. No understanding or knowledge of what you are saying or praying is edification by nothing.
The Bible says that when a person speaks in tongues, he is edified (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).

He does not set his seal of approval on self edification. He is the one who does the work, we edify him as a representative glory . Therefore not puffing up our own selves above that which is written .

 

[shrume]

You don't understand what speaking in tongues is, Roger.

We must be careful on how we hear what the Spirit says to us freely giving us ears to hear Him.

Scripture defines scripture .


Tongues... God with stammering lips (mocking) brining new prophecy in other languages other than Hebrew alone. A sign of God mocking the Jews that mocked him . They refusing to hear prophecy in exchange for a law of their fathers (oral tradition of men .

The very foundation of the tongues doctrine of God must not be ignored in place of; I need a outward eveidence to prove a person is being filled with the spirit as in never full .

Christian are filled from the moment they are given the faith of Christ needed to believe God not seen . Christ our confidence who begins the good work in us finishes it to the end.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. "Wherefore" hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:11-15




It is a integral part of it, ( hearing God ).

Seeing God is no longer brining any new prophecy (the word of God) .He has set a seal and applies a warning not to add or subtract now that we have the whole or perfect .



Can we go above the perfect, as that which is written ? The Catholic think so and call it private revelations .



He does not set his seal of approval on self edification. He is the one who does the work, we edify him as a representative glory . Therefore not puffing up our own selves above that which is written .

I'm glad that you're a brother in Christ, garee, but your posts are mostly incoherent.

 

[notuptome]

It also comes by speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).

That is incorrect. Self edification is not a good thing. And Jude I snot addressing praying in tongues that is a faulty interpretation of the passage.

You need to gain knowledge concerning the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I have the mind of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit. I understand tongues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You are the one who is making the error of confusing the meaning of the related scripture.

The pages of the Bible are not blank.

1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

My point exactly. You cannot learn or be edificfied by blank pages. Nor can you gain understanding if you have no knowlege. You read the scriptures but do not comprehend what they are saying.

For the cause of Christ
Roger