YOKE OF BONDAGE

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

Honest, Abe kept the 10

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

So why was Abraham observing to keep Gods 10 commandments? He heard and obeyed Gods "voice"

DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God . [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The voice...The 10 commandments. No doubt about it

ZEPHANIAH 3 [1] Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city! [2] SHE OBEYED NOT THE VOICE; she received not correction; she trusted not in the LORD; she drew not near to her God. [3] Her princes within her are ROARING LIONS; her judges are evening WOLVES; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow. [4] Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, THEY HAVE DONE VIOLENCE TO THE LAW.

Youll find those lions and wolves mentioned in the new covenant scriptures. The bad guys

JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Also Gods sheep shall also hear His “voice”.

Like I said, simply because the word commandment or law appears does not mean it is the 10 commandments.
The fact that the word voice appears is likewise no evidence that it's referring to something the Bible itself records as given hundreds of years later.

That's 100% unsupported conjecture on your part.

Actual commands are recorded given to Abraham in Genesis. Why not allow the text to say what it says?

And your first problem is that you have completely wrong interpretation in post #1. Talking about Abraham now is a distraction from that problem.

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Do you imagine Paul means something other than the Law when he says "the Law"?

If not then nothing i said is out of context.

Wall · Jul 10, 2018

posthuman said:

OK.

The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned once. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. Those that wish to do away with Gods 10 commandments will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. In saying that they will point to a scripture thats speaking of circumcision and then apply that scripture to Gods 10 commandments. This is done to extreme in the book of Galatians. The scripture below separates the law, the commandments and the ordinances

2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] AND the statutes, AND the ordinances, AND the law, AND the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

AND means AND....

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

How many times is "the Law" mentioned and alluded to directly in Galatians?

Let's not be obtuse.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

Read Hebrews to see that the New Covenant is already in force.

Wall · Jul 10, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

The covenant in His blood is already in force. Not the covenant in Hebrews 8

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Jer.31 and Heb.8 are speaking of the same exact covenant. Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Jer.31 and Hebrews 8 already arrived?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Every time i say we {gentiles} are to keep the 10 commandments, i hear that covenant wasnt given to the gentiles! It was given to Isreal only!

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Not that only! Hebrews 8 [8] says Behold the days come when He will make a new covenant. Didnt come yet. Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason. To hide the truth

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts?

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

Theres that "voice" again. After the gathering {in the twinkling of an eye} to the kingdom rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yup

Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart!

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

Studyman said:

Sounds like typical SDA propaganda.

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Covenants/Cross/tabid/446/Default.aspx

I hear SDA's quote this passage of scripture a lot and teach that Isaiah 66:23 is proof that Christians will observe Sabbath now, and in the new heaven. Does Isaiah 66:23 teach that Christians should observe the Sabbath? If Isaiah 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Jewish Sabbath in the new heaven, then it also teaches we will keep the Jewish New Moon festival in heaven. "And it shall be from new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord” - Isaiah 66:23. Let's be consistent.

SDA's have the Jewish new moon festival observances in the new heaven based on the above text. If you insist on Sabbath observances based on Isaiah 66:23, they also need to observe new moons as well. Yet from what I hear, most Sabbatarian’s don’t observe new moons. hmm.. That’s inconsistent.

Are New moons and Sabbath keeping a requirement for Christians based on the New Covenant terms? NO.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Will there be Levital Priests in the new heaven? If Isaiah 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Jewish Sabbath in the new heaven, then it also teaches in Isaiah 66:21 that the Levitical priests will be in the new heaven, because it is also mentioned. What happened to the Levitical Priesthood under the New Covenant terms? Priesthood changed so did the law. Hebrews 7:12 - For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. *The Old and New Covenants do not mix.

Part 1

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

Part 2

Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is not living by every word of God. It's twisting the word of God.

How many times did Jesus, Paul, John and Peter make keeping His Commandments the basis or means by which we merit eternal life? Answer - 0. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What did Paul say in Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? What did Peter say in Acts 10:43 and Acts 11:17?

SDA's have Institutionalized Deception. There is a danger in any religious philosophy that depends in any degree, on the efforts of man to obtain or earn their salvation.

If one reads Romans 2:7-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life (believers) are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life (unbelievers) are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

Studyman said:

Which translation says "receive grace" by keeping the commandments? That sounds like what Roman Catholicism teaches. Your religion is a mixture of SDA propaganda and Roman Catholic works system. Both you and the rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making and both have failed to place your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. The rich young man continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23) and you continue to trust in works. You both confidently and (self righteously) declare that you have sufficiently kept the commandments and will qualify for heaven under those terms.

BTW - John 8:31 ..“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Those who do not continue demonstrate that they were not truly disciples of Jesus. Those who pervert the gospel demonstrate they are not disciples of Jesus, but followers of a false religion or cult.

We turn to God when we repent and believe the gospel. Works meet for repentance are the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) not the means of our salvation. We are not saved by works.

Yes, you could go on and on, distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to promote your works-based false gospel, but I'm not buying what you are selling.

He was deceived. Just like you. Jesus showed the rich young man that he could not even keep the first commandment, which is the first of the two great commandments (Matthew 22:37). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth (his money was his god) not even in exchange for eternal life.

We will never agree because you continue to teach your perverted sabbath gospel which equates to salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" and I teach salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

hmm.. Old Covenant or New Covenant? Isaiah 58:1 - 1 - Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

See Colossians 2:16-17. When did God command the Church, under the New Covenant to keep the Sabbath? *Keeping the Sabbath day is not biding on Christians under the New Covenant.

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform,

that is, the Ten Commandments;

and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
(Deuteronomy 4:13)

Wall · Jul 10, 2018

mailmandan said:

Once again you are wrong

MATT.19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, GOOD MASTER, WHAT GOOD THING SHALL I DO, THAT I MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

This man spoke to Jesus as though He were not God but an enlightened human teacher.
If you do not believe that He is I AM then the Law is your only hope for life. That is why He also told the Pharisees to search the scriptures because in them they think they have life, just as it is written, 'do these and you will live' ((re: Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, Romans 10:5))

This is not what Jesus said to those who believe. He says whoever believes will live and never die ((e.g. John 11:25-26)).

Notice that when the man said He kept the commandments He told him that he still lacked charity.

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

posthuman said:

He bade this man to act with a charity far beyond any requirement in the Law. And follow.

Was this command for everyone, if what He told him was to be universally applied?
Do you still have any possessions?
Are you disobedient to God if you do?

Be consistent in theology. There is no partiality with God.

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

posthuman said:

He told them that the scriptures testify of Himself. This is the real reason to search them: to know Him is life.

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

posthuman said:

Amen! The rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus (John 3:18).

The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

posthuman said:

Amen! John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship).

The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

posthuman · Jul 10, 2018

mailmandan said:

Amen!

Except...

mailmandan said:

I am not sure ((as I think you know?)) this is what became of him. There is more than one reason he may have been sad... The scripture says Jesus loved him; I hold hope for him and God's mercy

Wall · Jul 10, 2018

posthuman said:

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2018

Wall said:

To keep (guard, observe, watch over, keep intact) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we know Him.

http://biblehub.com/greek/5083.htm

John is not talking about sinless, perfect obedience to the 10 commandments and we do not receive eternal life based on the merits of keeping His commandments.

YOKE OF BONDAGE

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member