Not By Works

[gb9]

Yes, it is good news that God calls us to repent, while we are slaves to the devil, and bound up in sin.



Good loves us and calls us to turn to Him, while we are yet sinners.


Thats Good News.


The way we obey the Gospel command to turn to God, is by confessing Jesus as our Lord, which demonstrates we no longer serve Satan as lord.

This is how we are transferred out of the kingdom [domain] of darkness, into the kingdom of God; The kingdom of His dear Son.


This is how we are forgiven of all our past sins and trespasses, and sanctified by obeying the truth.


This is the Gospel Jesus sent His apostles to preach including Paul.



Words of Christ in red -


14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20




JPT

agreed.

 

[gb9]

You gave your opinion, and now you are bearing false witness against me, by saying I am teaching "salvation by works".


Please explain how turning to God and submitting to Him, by confessing Jesus as Lord, is "works based salvation".


Is believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth, a "work"?


Please stop ignoring the scriptures, and words of Jesus Christ, in favor of your own man made doctrine.

• and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20



JPT

I did not give you an opinion , I gave you textbook definitions of the words BELIEVE and GOSPEL.

why you ( or anyone ) says that we have to obey to BE saved, that is wrong.

when we say that we will obey because we are saved, that is correct.

I tell you this from a personal level. I have believed in the Christian " basics ( one God, creation, virgin birth, the Resurrection ) ", but until I came to Christ at age 26, I did believe in those things, but had little regard for Bible teaching on how to live.

when I came to Him, I began to want to obey, but after came to HIm.

 

[justpassinthrough]

did not give you an opinion , I gave you textbook definitions of the words BELIEVE and GOSPEL.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Believing with the heart with out confession of the mouth is not the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Why do you keep ignoring this principle?


James explains -

• by works faith was made perfect; (complete)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.


Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage


The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.


Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel, by confessing Jesus as Lord, showing we are commited to obey Him as Lord.




JPT

 

[VCO]

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

. . .

JPT

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


THAT IS A CONFESSION, IF THE FIRST PART IS REALLY IN YOUR HEART, not just in your head.

So stop robbing GOD of the GLORY ONLY HE DESERVES.

 

[justpassinthrough]

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that is the grace part of salvation.

It's called the power of God unto salvation.


16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17


There is no righteousness of faith, without the work of obedience.


Justification means to be declared righteous.


Faith without the work of obedience is dead.


Why do you keep ignoring this divine principle.


Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete.



James explains -

• by works faith was made perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.


Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage


The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.


Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:26


So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JPT

 

[mailmandan]

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

THAT IS A CONFESSION, IF THE FIRST PART IS REALLY IN YOUR HEART, not just in your head.

So stop robbing GOD of the GLORY ONLY HE DESERVES.

Amen brother!

I've heard certain people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

 

[Chester]

You would have Christ take up a permanent residence on the cross wouldn't you....

Justified<---legally declared INNOCENT
Where sin abounds <---GRACE DID ABOUND THE MORE-->written to BELIEVERS

How many times do you need t be dipped in the blood of Christ to be covered? 1, 2, 3, 50, every time you sin?

WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD I WILL PASS OVER YOU and HE saved you at YOUR WORST when LOST IN SIN and DEAD!

Christ - permanent residence on the cross? No, but the blood he shed will forever cleanse each and every sin of the ones who are believing in Him!

Grace abounds? Absolutely! If grace did not abound and continue to abound no one would be saved!

How many times dipped in the blood? The blood forgives my sin every time that I sin! be it 10, 50, 490, or 5000, or more? HALLELUJAH!

Forgiveness of future sin? If sin has not yet been committed, there is no transgression, and there is no need for forgiveness!

But when I do sin, and I am believing in Christ, there is forgiveness because of the precious blood of the Lamb!

 

[VCO]

. . .


There is no righteousness of faith, without the work of obedience.


Justification means to be declared righteous.


. . .

JPT

That is the definition of a FALSE GOSPEL. YOU add anything TO GRACE, (and faith is part of GRACE); and you have CREATED A FALSE GOSPEL.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses.
You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:4-8 (HCSB)
4 But when the goodness of God and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done,
but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. [Obedience comes AFTER WE ARE SAVED, and is part of LOVE.]
I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.


So what part of GOD'S GIFT do you NOT UNDERSTAND?


Romans 4:4-5 (HCSB)
4 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous,
his faith is credited for righteousness.


I would suggest that you humble yourself, and stop thinking that you earned part of your Salvation, and BE THANKFUL FOR HIS GRACE AND MERCY:


Luke 18:10-14 (HCSB)
10 “Two men went up to the temple complex to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee took his stand and was praying like this: ‘God, I thank You that I’m not like other people—greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of everything I get.’
13 “But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes to heaven but kept striking his chest and saying, ‘God, turn Your wrath from me—a sinner!’
14 I tell you, this one went down to his house justified rather than the other; because everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[OstrichSmiling]

These are references to whole chapters of scripture, none of which teach us our sin that we haven’t yet committed is somehow forgiven.


For the Christian, we must confess our sin to be forgiven.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


JPT

If you take the time to read the full chapter of that scripture I provided you'll have your answer Context in the study of Soteriology and Exegesis is imperative to understanding. One text , scripture verse, taken out of context may say what the person wants to convey but is it in context to the subject of the teaching Jesus afforded on this particular subject?

 

[justpassinthrough]

That is the definition of a FALSE GOSPEL.

Any Gospel that does not have obedience is a false gospel.

Only those who repent, turn to God by confessing Jesus as Lord are saved.


19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Acts 26:19-20


No one is justified by disobedience.



No one who practices the works of the flesh will inherit the kingdom of God.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

If you take the time to read the full chapter of that scripture I provided you'll have your answer Context in the study of Soteriology and Exegesis is imperative to understanding. One text , scripture verse, taken out of context may say what the person wants to convey but is it in context to the subject of the teaching Jesus afforded on this particular subject?

Quoting an entire Chapter reference, without bothering to actually quote any scriptures at all, will not help anyone.


Only those who confess their sin are forgiven.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9



JPT

 

[TruthTalk]

Amen brother!

I've heard certain people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Romans10:8
"But what does it say? “The word is near you, 'in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming."

Hi mailmandan, yes confess/belief, (v10:9) or belief/confession, (v10:10), are not "two seperate steps to salvation but they are one and the same. Another note of relevance is that the Apostle Paul never ever uses these two words together again in the entire New Testament. Your interpretation of this passage of scripture is correct.

One bible verse makes not a doctrine of the Church,

God bless

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Quoting an entire Chapter reference, without bothering to actually quote any scriptures at all, will not help anyone.


Only those who confess their sin are forgiven.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9



JPT

Well, if you're Catholic that isn't what I'm discussing. If you were interested in broadening your awareness of the topic at hand you'd actually make the effort to look up the Book and chapters I've cited. Instead, you paste one line of scripture and demonstrate context is of no interest to your understanding.
Thank you for your time.

 

[benhur]

What are some of the faith alone denominations and what are some of the works-salvationist denominations?

Interesting question.

My little band of Christians?
What about yours?
You seen retisant to tell us what church you go to or denomination?

Why?


Quote any posts that I have said works will not follow faith.
So now you accuse me off of not being willing to acknowledge Jesus by doing acts of charity.



Oh boy oh boy oh boy.

I would have the chance to forgive my abuse in the afterlife.
Then you say "I wy have the chance"

If that's the case then I would not be separated from Jesus as you said in previous posts if I did not do it before I died.

Sorry but there is no opportunity once we have died.

If you think so then please post build verses to back up your point.
Where in the Bible does it say this?

You are contradicting yourself.

Die with unforgivness, then seperated from Jesus, then have a chance to forgive, but then you say you have a chance to forgive after you have have died"

Here is the irony.

I'm the one who kills you and your family.
You die before you forgive me.
You have the chance to forgive me.
I die one minute after I killed you.
Do I have that same chance?

Afterall sin is sin, whether it be unforgivness or murder.

So as asked please post Bible verses to back up your post from the BIBLE

BillG, I was not responding to you, so I have not accused you of anything. I did not say to you it was highly unlikely that you will acknowledge Jesus with your charity. So your whole post is out of line.

My post was responding to recon, not you.

 

[benhur]

Well, if you're Catholic that isn't what I'm discussing. If you were interested in broadening your awareness of the topic at hand you'd actually make the effort to look up the Book and chapters I've cited. Instead, you paste one line of scripture and demonstrate context is of no interest to your understanding.
Thank you for your time.

Do you believe you are the only one that can use context the way it needs to be used? You make a point and then expect those on the forum to go look up what you stated? You need to work on your forum etiquette.

 

[TruthTalk]

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Only those who confess their sin are forgiven.

Proverbs28:13
Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

Apostle John is speaking to believer's whose sin needs to be confessed so that he can receive forgiveness from God or anyone offended by this sin. This is not a confession unto salvation but owning up to a sin and not trying to cover up a sin. This confession is something Christians do as needed to remain in fellowship with our Heavenly Father.

 

[benhur]

Romans10:8
"But what does it say? “The word is near you, 'in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming."

Hi mailmandan, yes confess/belief, (v10:9) or belief/confession, (v10:10), are not "two seperate steps to salvation but they are one and the same. Another note of relevance is that the Apostle Paul never ever uses these two words together again in the entire New Testament. Your interpretation of this passage of scripture is correct.

One bible verse makes not a doctrine of the Church,

God bless

Lets see how this works in the real world.

You wake up one night from a dream and the Holy Spirit has entered your heart and you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and according to you, the second you believe you are saved. Then 1 second after this person woke up and believed, they were saved. Anything after this moment will be considered a 'work'. Confession is made after you are saved, it cannot happen simultaneous to believeing, so it is a 'work' to confess Jesus is Lord, at least according to your definition of how one is saved. So now what?

 

[benhur]

JPT --------------------------------------------------->Shoots and misses the barn from about 3 feet away because....








THE TARGET is way down here and the truth alludes him.......His Jesus cannot save someone....too weak and cannot keep his promises, no power etc...

Again you are attacking the messenger. Are you out of words to discuss what he has said. When you attack the messenger, you are just showing your ignorance. You show it a lot. Stay on topic, you started the thread.

 

[benhur]

"Little Band of Christians; what an insult to Jesus and His disciples. And why not tell every one here "what Church denomination you are affiliated with." Is there something you are afraid that we may not approve of your theological doctrines? Why so secretive got something to hide? It is only right that you should be honest about this since we are all listening to what you are teaching on an International Christian Forum.

benher, What Chruch denomination are you affiliated with please

You do not approve of my theological doctrines now, so how will telling you my church denomination help me? or you?

 

[Metternich]

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I see this verse quoted a lot on this thread. I hope someone can interpret it for me. I assume Paul is speaking to believers. What is a saved person lacking that God needs to complete it. How is this accomplished?