Not By Works

shrume · Jul 3, 2018

VCO said:

VCO, it is not God's doing that some choose to believe but others don't. If you want to insist that nobody can believe without the help of the Holy Spirit, then know that God is helping all men to believe. He is no respecter of persons, and He genuinely does want all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He does not save some ahead of time but reject others.

People actually have to DO what Romans 10:9 says to do. And ANYONE who has heard the gospel can decide to believe it and confess Jesus as Lord and believe in his heart that God raised him from the dead. When a person does that, he shall be saved. Not before.

theanointedsinner · Jul 3, 2018

TruthTalk said:

Beautiful testimony anointedsinner, two things stood out to me, your sincerity and not letting go of God until you had assurance of your salvation, God bless!

Mark9:24
"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

I sent you a PM @TruthTalk

Seohce · Jul 3, 2018

VCO said:

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

WE RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BY FAITH AND NOT BEFORE.

shrume · Jul 3, 2018

Seohce, I appreciate the "thumbs up" you have been giving my posts, but I think you should know that I believe that once a person does act on Rom 10:9 and becomes born again, his salvation is assured. The Christian new birth is permanent.

VCO · Jul 4, 2018

shrume said:

He is ALL KNOWING, he knows from the beginning of time the decisions we will make. Rom 10:9 most think a profession that Jesus is Enough; however is a CONFESSION, that with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT it has to be TRUE IN YOU HEART, before anyone can count it as a CONFESSION that JESUS IS MY LORD, meaning MASTER. GOD CHOOSES THOSE WHO WILL CHOOSE HIM, and wrote the names in the book of life before He formed the world.

Acts 4:28 (ESV)
28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had
Acts 4:28 (ESV)
28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
to take place.

Ephesians 1:11 (HCSB)
11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,

Ephesians 1:5-6 (HCSB)
5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,
6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.

Romans 8:29-30 (ESV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Seohce · Jul 4, 2018

shrume said:

Philippians 3:12-16 Pressing on Toward the Goal Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too GOD WILL MAKE CLEAR TO YOU . Only lLET US LIVE UP TO WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY ATTAINED.

50C1AL0N3 · Jul 4, 2018

It is God who justifies. Period. Whenever you try to involve the merit of human effort in any situation dealing with God's will you will find room for fault and debate. Look at the truth in the will of God and you will find no wiggle room. No scripture that seems to disagree with scripture. Nothing but a complete and flawless plan of salvation that was perfected before the human race began.

Danny1988 · Jul 4, 2018

50C1AL0N3 said:

Most "Christians" will disagree with you, they don't like a Gospel that leaves them nothing to boast about. They prefer the man centered gospel, where they receive the reward of salvation for their wise choice to accept Jesus.
They don't believe any of the scriptures which state that God is the One who saves sinners, and that man would never choose to believe if God left them in their blind state.

lightbearer · Jul 4, 2018

Seohce said:

We are to be subduing the body (through Christ), bringing it into subjection: lest that by any means, when we have preached to others, we ourselves should be a castaway (1Co 9:27)

Seohce · Jul 4, 2018

New International Version 1984 Jude 1:5-19 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE. In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them. Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "IN THE LAST TIMES there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” THESE ARE THE MEN WHO DIVIDE YOU, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

Matthew 24:10-13 AT THAT TIME MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, BUT HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED.

Romans 15:4 FOR EVERYTHING THAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE PAST WAS WRITTEN TO TEACH US, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures WE MIGHT HAVE HOPE.

mailmandan · Jul 4, 2018

shrume said:

I've heard certain people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

justpassinthrough · Jul 4, 2018

OstrichSmiling said:

These are references to whole chapters of scripture, none of which teach us our sin that we haven’t yet committed is somehow forgiven.

For the Christian, we must confess our sin to be forgiven.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

JPT

gb9 · Jul 4, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

The word "believe" means believe, trust and commit, as well as obey.

The Gospel is - Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repent means: turn to God in submission to His kingdom and rule as Lord.

If a person is called to turn to God, then by default they are called to turn away from Satan as their Lord.

The way we obey the Gospel command to turn to God, is by confessing Jesus as our Lord, which demonstrates we no longer serve Satan as lord.

This is how we are transferred out of the kingdom [domain] of darkness, into the kingdom of God; The kingdom of His dear Son.

This is how we are forgiven of all our past sins and trespasses, and sanctified by obeying the truth.

This is the Gospel Jesus sent His apostles to preach including Paul.

Words of Christ in red -

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20

Whenever we see anything accomplished "by faith", such as justified by faith, or sanctified by faith, or saved by faith, there is always obedience involved.

That's why it's called "the obedience of faith".

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

It's called the obedience of faith, because faith without the action of obedience is dead: dormant, lifeless.

James explains -

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Not the works of the law
Not the works that earn
Not good works

It was by the corresponding action of obedience, by which Abraham was declared to be righteous.

This is the righteousness of faith.

So by us obeying the Gospel, by confessing Jesus as our Lord, we are sanctified by faith: Saved.

We begin our journey of following our Lord.

JPT

believe is a mental action, not a work.

greek word for believe - pisteuo- definition - commit unto, put one's trust in, to credit, have confidence.

the word Gospel means the good news that the Messiah has come.

so, the words of Christ are true= whosoever believes in me ( the Messiah ) shall have eternal life.

so, very clearly, we obey because we are saved, not TO BE saved. do you accept this truth?

mailmandan · Jul 4, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Is the blood of Christ insufficient to forgive future sins? Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who BELIEVES is justified from ALL things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10).

Certain people seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast!

justpassinthrough · Jul 4, 2018

gb9 said:

Believe is a spiritual action of the heart.

When coupled with the corresponding action of obedience, [which in the case of salvation is confessing Jesus as Lord], produces the intended divine result of salvation.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Everyone receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who believe and obey the Gospel who are saved.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete.

James explains -

by works faith was made perfect; (complete)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.

Works = The effort obedience requires.

James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.

Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

I look forward to discussing this further with you.

JPT

mailmandan · Jul 4, 2018

gb9 said:

Amen! Well said. Believe is commit unto, put one's trust in, to credit, have confidence and obedience which follows is works.

gb9 · Jul 4, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Believe is a spiritual action of the heart.

When coupled with the corresponding action of obedience, [which in the case of salvation is confessing Jesus as Lord], produces the intended divine result of salvation.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Everyone receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who believe and obey the Gospel who are saved.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete.

James explains -

by works faith was made perfect; (complete)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.

Works = The effort obedience requires.

James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.

Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

I look forward to discussing this further with you.

JPT

there is nothing to discuss. you are wrong. 100% wrong.

you are just like most Bible thumpers I have seen- you just throw words around with no regard for their meaning.

I gave you textbook definitions of BELIEVE and GOSPEL. you ignored them, and kept right on saying salvation by works.

by grace, through faith, for good works, it is not of yourself.

you say that it IS of yourself, because you have to obey to obtain salvation. wrong . wrong . wrong

mailmandan · Jul 4, 2018

gb9 said:

there is nothing to discuss. you are wrong. 100% wrong.

you are just like most Bible thumpers I have seen- you just throw words around with no regard for their meaning.

I gave you textbook definitions of BELIEVE and GOSPEL. you ignored them, and kept right on saying salvation by works.

by grace, through faith, for good works, it is not of yourself.

you say that it IS of yourself, because you have to obey to obtain salvation. wrong . wrong . wrong

You hit the nail on the head brother!

justpassinthrough · Jul 4, 2018

gb9 said:

Yes, it is good news that God calls us to repent, while we are slaves to the devil, and bound up in sin.

Good loves us and calls us to turn to Him, while we are yet sinners.

Thats Good News.

The way we obey the Gospel command to turn to God, is by confessing Jesus as our Lord, which demonstrates we no longer serve Satan as lord.

This is how we are transferred out of the kingdom [domain] of darkness, into the kingdom of God; The kingdom of His dear Son.

This is how we are forgiven of all our past sins and trespasses, and sanctified by obeying the truth.

This is the Gospel Jesus sent His apostles to preach including Paul.

Words of Christ in red -

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 4, 2018

gb9 said:

You gave your opinion, and now you are bearing false witness against me, by saying I am teaching "salvation by works".

Please explain how turning to God and submitting to Him, by confessing Jesus as Lord, is "works based salvation".

Is believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth, a "work"?

Please stop ignoring the scriptures, and words of Jesus Christ, in favor of your own man made doctrine.

and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20

JPT

Not By Works

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