Speaking in tongues

[garee]

This is still not true, garee. Tongues is not God speaking, it is people speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2). Tongues is not prophesy. They are different manifestations.

Speaking in tongues is not prophesy, garee. Also, tongues is not God speaking, it is people speaking TO God (1 Cor 14:2).

In lieu of the verse you offered.

1 Corinthians 14
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue(other languages other than Hebrews alone) does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

I would offer. The phrase; "does not speak to people but to God". must be defined . He was not lifting up tongues above all other forms of prophecy as that which we are to desire after.

He is saying I believe... What purpose would it be to speak in an unknown langue other than that of Hebrews alone in so much that others could not understand and only God can hear?


No one other than God understands them; they utter mysteries, by the Spirit not by the man speaking.
But the one that prophecying " declaring the will of God", as God gives them understanding ,not hid from them.. they understand the mysteries .

If one speaks in tongues and God does not give the other His understanding they edify their own selves as a form of pride. But one that prophecies edifies both the body and the Spirit that gave the understanding

 

[7seasrekeyed]

"shrume, post: 3642341, member: 257974"]Where is there an example in the Bible showing that praying in the spirit is praying "in tune" with the Holy Spirit? I know that we are to "fervent in spirit" (Acts 18:25 and Rom 12:11), but where is there an example of praying in the Spirit that is not talking about speaking in tongues? In 1 Cor 12:3 tongues is referred to as "speaking by the Spirit of God", Paul explicitly states that speaking in tongues is praying in the spirit in 1 Cor 14:13-15 and in v16 it is called "bless with the spirit".

oh..are you saying you have never prayed in the understanding and knowing the prayer is by the Holy Spirit? well, if you have not I am sorry but I know I have and basically, we have a huge example. the entire Bible is one huge example. it's interesting you believe in speaking in tongues and someone 'translating' it, but find difficulty that someone can speak in their own language and be filled with the Holy Spirit. how do you explain the gift of teaching then? the person would not be speaking in tongues, but they would definitely be influenced by the Holy Spirit...same with praying. Paul does express praying and singing in the spirit as tongues BECAUSE he is talking about tongues

don't limit the Holy Spirit because you have not had the ability to translate or understand what you are saying in tongues...this is also one of the gifts . I often sing in the spirit and then in English so I have a pretty good idea what the Holy Spirit is saying or singing through me. again, this is in line with scripture

I mean repeating what Paul says is fine, but if you do not understand the other half...that he says he would rather speak 5 words in the understanding then a whole lotta things no one understands, then what is the purpose in the first place?

a person can speak in the understanding under the influence of the Holy Spirit if that is the way God uses them

How could Paul (again by revelation) say that he desires all Christians to speak in tongues but not mean it? And as far as "calming it down", he was certainly not telling them to stop speaking in tongues. He was telling them how to do it properly. The Corinthians were all speaking out loud at once, and nobody was interpreting. He told them that if a person wants to speak in tongues aloud in the church, he should pray with the intent to interpret. And only two or three people should do it, and it should be done in order, not all at the same time.

who said he did not mean it? the fact he said he wishes they would actually indicates everyone does not

I have known people who do not speak in tongues, but absolutely are filled with the Holy Spirit. you cannot paint everyone with the broad brush of your own understanding here

There are different aspects to being "filled" (Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 13:9, 52; Eph 5:18), but when a person is saved, he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. That gives him the ability to operate the manifestations of that spirit.


What that shows us is that the apostles were concerned or interested in seeing people manifest the Holy Spirit. If you see someone manifest the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues, you know that are born again, saved. That's what flabbergasted Peter with Cornelius. Hearing them speak in tongues was proof that Cornelius and his family were saved.

well don't go there until you have dealt with a practicing witch who speaks in tongues
there are fake tongues and demonic tongues. I have heard them so everyone who is supposedly speaking in tongues may not be. further as I already said, tongues are alot of noise if the life behind them is not one obedient to Christ. that, is a major problem in some churches. I do know what I am talking about having been in ministry for a good number of years and seen more than I want to see.
not trying to convince you because of what I say I know, but ABUSE of the gifts is a major major problem and take a look at NAR and other popular movements to better understand what I say

I don't and I won't give all kinds of personal anecdotes because why should anyone believe me? however, those who have experience and have been in many different churches over a good number of years will understand that nothing much has changed since Paul gave instructions. people pretty much run off in all directions and go crazy with tongues and ignore the other gifts

no offence to those who actually go to a church where things are done decently and in order and no gift is over emphasized in place of the One who gives them

 

[7seasrekeyed]

had to divide my response into 2 posts cause over 1000 words. if I made spelling errors or my brain was working better than my typing, let me know if something does not make sense and I'll have another go at it haha

There has been a lot of discussion on this. But it should be obvious that people have the ability to operate more than one manifestation, because just two chapters later, Paul says:

ok you insist on saying manifestation while translations say gifts, but the same Spirit. what you say is true and I have experienced that myself. there is nothing you need to convince me of and do not think I have seen it all but probably seen more than many BECAUSE I have been in leadership for years and counselled and prayed with people. the worst offenders are those who do NOT practice being a good Berean and do NOT test to see if what they experience is actually the Holy Spirit...you would not believe how badly mixed up people can get.

I'll just say this again...NAR is one prime example and so is the emergent church and all the fake prophets ...they all insist what they do is God and it is NOT

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Paul is saying that the person who speaks in tongues is to be the one to interpret.

23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24) But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

Those verses indicate that all CAN speak in tongues, and all CAN prophesy.


Yes, they are commonly called gifts, but that is unfortunate. Being called a "gift" implies that it's something special, only some people get it, and others don't.

no it isn't. unfortunate according to who? it's not anyone's fault but the fault of the individual if they do not study or understand. is it God's fault or the translators fault if people 'mimic' what they see instead of seeking God for themself the way we are supposed to do?

1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

well, you yourself said there is more than one manifestation. if I never prayed or spoke in tongues again I would not worry about it.

I KNOW the Holy Spirit works as He will by God's direction and what you seem to forget, is that God is not in the assembly line business

I'm not sure what translation that is, but it's not very good, IMO, especially verse 7. (and no, I am not a KJV Only person... )

well it's many translations not just the one...however it is apparent if one studies or just reads, that it is the Holy Spirit so I don't know why you are hung up that

4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

There are differences of gifts, differences of administrations, differences of operations, BUT the manifestation of the spirit is given to everyone (Christian). And again, the overall context of 1 Cor 12-14 is Christian meetings, and different people are inspired to do different things.

The point is that speaking in tongues is never called a gift in the Bible. It is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit, one that God says (through Paul) that He would like every Christian to operate.

well that is not so. further, tongues has 2 purposes as I have consistently pointed out. but that's fine if that is your understanding
I already provided the scripture that indicates that there is the gift of diverse tongues which appears to be different than just speaking in tongues

thing is, how many actually look into all of this for themselves? most seem content to just 'speak in tongues' and away we go..everyone at once...church after church does this...I stay away from it and frankly I don't care for all this praying over people in tongues either. I've seen some very bad results from this. Paul would pull his hair out

Agreed. garee is always polite.

yes

I'm going to leave off discussing this with you. I think we both said what we had to say and I am not about the business of convincing people that I am right. sure I will say when I think something is wrong, like everyone else, but I have enough of this never ending back and forth and nitpicking and splitting hairs. we are each supposed to study and not just take someone else's word for it

in most threads on tongues, that is all that goes on. with the debate (or argument) being mostly fer or agin, with the results that bits and pieces of truth get thrown out and then often enough chewed up and spit out

its tiresome

there are very good reasons why so many do not want to speak in tongues or insist it is no longer valid and I have listed some of them above

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Acts 2 talks about Pentecost and when God's Holy Spirit descended upon the masses gathered in one place and bestowed the Heavenly gift of languages upon them.

Any church that claims God would never ..... in this age is of the Devil. There isn't a mortal alive that has the right to insist their egoism ranks what God can and cannot do according to them. And especially when they're trying to use God's word to support their arrogance.

God can do anything he wants.

hey purple

I understand what you are saying but let me throw the following into what you said:

be careful about calling churches 'of the devil' IMO, there are very sincere people mixed up even in the worst churches and God knows the hearts and who is false and who is not

yes, God can do anything...but He has limited Himself as to what He actually will do according to His word and that is where so many get into trouble...they go BEYOND the word and call it a new revelation when it is deception

I am not saying you are doing that...I am just making a point

 

[7seasrekeyed]

If you want to pester Christians on a forum at least spend the time to learn what the Bible says about the subject you want to tear apart thinking you're upsetting folks.

Well, I think it just a matter of time before the door closes on you here.

purple...it would be a big aid to know who you are talking to

could you please quote the person you are talking to? gets confusing otherwise

thanks

 

[Noose]

The alcoholic turned tee-total, the convict who never committed another crime are the visible evidence of a changed life.

But how do you know, are you the one saving?

Heb 4:
6Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”d
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,ejust as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

We are assured through faith but through faith we hope for these promises.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Gabriel2020 doesn't believe any of that.

well, 2020 sounds like he is not a part of what is accepted Bible understanding

he's 'out there' belonging to some church, apparently, that thinks the apocalypse has already begun and in fact started at that church

not much you can say there

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This is an interesting paradox. Scripture does say that in that time everyone who received the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues. But not long afterward, Paul said that even though he wished we all would do it, not all of us will. So scripture goes from everyone, to wishing everyone, to no not everyone. Very contradictory in our world. But instead of playing A against C, is there an answer that makes all 3 positions gel?

I would agree that it 'seems' all spoke in tongues but there does seem to be a 'change' after the fact

I try to understand what is going on or at least understand that maybe I don't quite...but I can only go by what is written and obviously we were not there to see if for ourselves

'bout all I can say about it. I think it is not right to insist on something that really does not say what we want it to say

for a fact, not all do speak in tongues and again, too much emphasis on it

 

[7seasrekeyed]

No, because by definition, when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2), his understanding is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:14). This is why when tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted, so the church can be edified.

unless you can interpret? people also have the faith to skip tongues and just say what is on God's mind in the language they speak

why is this being passed over?

Paul is addressing tongues being spoken in public. When tongues are spoken in public, they must be interpreted.

uh huh

does not mean the person speaking cannot interpret themself

but what is also a part of the entire thing, is that 2 or 3 should speak...not 25 or 100

there must be agreement...seldom happens IMO

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Speaking in tongues is not prophesy, garee. Also, tongues is not God speaking, it is people speaking TO God (1 Cor 14:2).

sorry to interupt again...but when tongues are interpreted, they can very well be prophetic

prophetic in the sense of instruction, or deeper understanding of the word

I dunno

I am getting the impression you wrote a rule book on how to use tongues...you prob won't like I said that...but you correct everyone and point to scripture when more than one person here does not agree with what you see

you know, I'm fine with that. we don't all have the same experience...as long we do not go off down the wrong road

 

[7seasrekeyed]

seems folks have different ideas regarding what NT prophesy is

results in talking at people instead of discussing

well that's what I see anyway

 

[PS]

But how do you know, are you the one saving?

Heb 4:
6Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”d
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,ejust as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

We are assured through faith but through faith we hope for these promises.

Jesus saves from the guttermost to the uttermost. He is trustworthy, I trust Him and so should you, that is faith, saving faith.

 

[Dino246]

What about people who don't have the ability to speak?

Matt 6: 7 And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

John 16: 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

No one needs to speak to God. God already knew you before you were born, there's nothing new you are about to say to Him let alone in unknown language. Tongues ceased or rather are the many languages being spoken today.

Ah, so prayer is a complete waste of time, effort, and... Scripture? Perhaps you'd like to rethink that.

 

[Dino246]

Nope.

Paul is against speaking words with no meaning.

1 Cor 14: 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

You seem confused. I have asked, how do you speak intelligible words with your tongue and you told me with your own known language- but you keep quoting me verse 5. So does Paul want us to speak unknown words or intelligible words (verse 9)?

It seems that the issue here is your understanding of the word, "intelligible". If I'm wrong, my apologies. Anyway...

in·tel·li·gi·ble
inˈteləjəb(ə)l/
adjective: intelligible

1. able to be understood; comprehensible.
   "this would make the system more intelligible to the general public"
   synonyms:comprehensible, understandable;

 

[Dino246]

I would offer. It has much to do as to how we define the words. Change the meaning of one word... change the direction of the gospel

If I am hearing you aright. It would seem you are dividing prophecy from prophecy.

Previously prophecy came through the Hebrew language up until the time of reformation.
I see that more as prophecy.... men speaking as God puts his words on the lips of His sent ones, he informs us He is watching to make sure men who speak, do understand the words he put their lips .

It is then that the Spirit can perform that which he requires of us as he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed righteousness)

Excellent example with Jerimiah when God first called out that apostle.

Then the word of the Lord came unto me, (not from Jerimiah, not from Peter ) saying,Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord.Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree.Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it Jerimaiah 1: 4-12

The rod of a Almond tree in that Parable reveales the spiritual understanding hid . The rod used against those who refuse to hear prophecy .He was making sure Jeramiah did not add to His word of prophecy

Tongues (prophecy) God speaking in other languages other than that Hebrew alone is one manner or manifestation.

There are different manifestation as manners of prophecy. He spoke drawing straws or the giving lots when Matthias replaced Judas as one manner (not putting his seal of approval on gambling) or like with Gideon, new prophecy by using s Sheep fleece . a parable. Or using the rod of Arron, all manners as manifitations by which God separated believers from unbelievers (no faith)

Garee, your conflation of tongues with prophecy is erroneous. Paul very clearly distinguishes the two in 1 Cor 14. If they were the same thing, then every prophecy in Scripture would be given in a language foreign to the audience. That clearly is not the case.

 

[RickyZ]

And what is it that makes all three come together?

My thought is this:

When man was created, and as his numbers grew, he had a singular pure language. It was the only thing he kept after the fall. But it was lost at the tower of Babel. When the Christ returns to redeem all creation and everything that man has lost because of the fall, that pure singular language will be restored. Jesus has won the right to restore creation now, but has yet to return to enforce it. In the meantime, we are charged with that enforcement. There is argument that where the Bible speaks about tongues ceasing, it could be that they don't actually stop, they just cease to be known as a tongue (when the singular language is restored, it will be our native language and English/German/et al, if still around, will be known as tongues). Could it be that tongues are our ability to tap into that future restored language now thru the Holy Spirit? If this is the case, it becomes like the gift of healing - we are all promised restored health, but not all of us will see it in this realm. Thus, we are all promised to speak in tongues, but not all of us will see it in this realm.

 

[garee]

well, I think I am beginning to understand you better

yes experience is personal...and God reveals Himself personally

I would disagree with where you say we do not know God after our experiences. I have had some that have really clarified God for me. His love, His patience and so on

I do not believe we are perfected by what we do, but rather in Him who has accomplished our salvation...but even so...each day we make decisions as to how that is worked out in our personal lives

Thanks for the reply and I apologize for my bad use of grammar .

If we did say we do know him after our experiences rather that as it is written alone. Then Son of man failed when the father of lies brining in vision showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and all the glory... and desired that Christ bow down as a one experience .

Each time he was tempted he would say, as it is written, with the word it to represent the unseen faith of Christ that works in the heart of all believers. He performed that to protect the integrity of his word above all experiences.

He could have offered some of his own experiences. But then it becomes a war of experiences as to who is the greatest and in one way crucify Christ over and over by a personal experience, as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood as the things seen and not the faith of Christ the unseen, faith law.

We have a living hope that moves us which will be satisfied when we receive our new incorruptible bodies, all die not receiving it. For who hopes from something they already have or accomplished?

I do not believe we are perfected by what we do, but rather in Him who has accomplished our salvation...but even so...each day we make decisions as to how that is worked out in our personal lives .

When we receives our new incorruptible bodies then we will be complete or perfected

I would call the experience we do have the better thing that accompanies salvation .God will not forget the love we have shown and experienced. It as a source of Christ faith that works in us will abide till the end, Again our hope is towards his name, not after our experiences

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: Hebrews 6:9-11

 

[garee]

Garee, your conflation of tongues with prophecy is erroneous. Paul very clearly distinguishes the two in 1 Cor 14. If they were the same thing, then every prophecy in Scripture would be given in a language foreign to the audience. That clearly is not the case.

It would seem you are taking away God's understanding that he gives to us ?

How would he distinguish it between the two when either knew the language of the other, unless God gives them both a clear meaning ?

Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.1 Corinthians 14:10-12

communicating the gospel is a two way street .


0 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues ( other than Hebrew alone)
and through the lips of foreigners (all the languages of the world)
I will speak to this people,
but even then they (that refuse prophecy) will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”

The sign is against them who not to support prophecy. No outward sign for those who beleive prophecy just one inwardly, a new born again heart that desires to do the written will of God .as the onlt source of Christ's faith that works I those who do beleive prophecy

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers (that refuse to hear prophecy, no faith )but for believers.(that do hear prophecy ) So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?1 Corinthians 14:10-12

 

[Dino246]

It would seem you are taking away God's understanding that he gives to us ?

How would he distinguish it between the two when either knew the language of the other, unless God gives them both a clear meaning ?

Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.1 Corinthians 14:10-12

communicating the gospel is a two way street .


0 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues ( other than Hebrew alone)
and through the lips of foreigners (all the languages of the world)
I will speak to this people,
but even then they (that refuse prophecy) will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”

The sign is against them who not to support prophecy. No outward sign for those who beleive prophecy just one inwardly, a new born again heart that desires to do the written will of God .as the onlt source of Christ's faith that works I those who do beleive prophecy

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers (that refuse to hear prophecy, no faith )but for believers.(that do hear prophecy ) So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?1 Corinthians 14:10-12

In the latter passage you quote, it is clearly explained that prophecy is not the same as tongues, yet you keep insisting that speaking in tongues is prophesying. In the previous passage, to which you have added comments, you conflate the two. The word "prophecy" is not in that passage; you added it, so basing your argument on that is circular reasoning.

Why does Paul write "first, apostles, second prophets... helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues..."? Why would he write, "For one who speaking in a tongue does not speak to men but to God for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysters. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation"? Speaking in tongues and prophesying simply are not the same thing.

 

[Noose]

Ah, so prayer is a complete waste of time, effort, and... Scripture? Perhaps you'd like to rethink that.

Prayer is not what you think it is, it is nothing more than a need which God already knows and will fulfill. If it were some spoken word, then do people with no ability to speak have a chance in the kingdom of God?