John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

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carl11

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Oct 20, 2017
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They cannot be discipled before they are saved. Goats are not discipled only sheep.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So if you disciple some one you know for a fact that they are sheep and yet before anybody becomes saved are they not goats ?
 

carl11

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Oct 20, 2017
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Hi Danny, that's what the Bible tells us, even about the saving faith that we exercise when we choose to believe .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10, so "yes".

~Deut
to exercise or better said to exercise one's faith or choose to believe cannot happen one it would be a work that we do and two we are dead, dead as in a dead corpse no life no nothing, physical no but spiritual yes.
 

carl11

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Oct 20, 2017
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The two things are not even remotely similar. Calvinists think it was God's will for those things I listed above to happen. At the sheep & goat judgment, people will be judged according to how they chose to live and believe. It is THEIR responsibility to decide how to live, THEIR choices that they will be judged for. God is not in any way responsible for how people choose to live. He is not responsible for peoples' unbelief.
You are missing out on the point in that God already knows the sheep and the goats. In other words he is saving some and condemning others. As in the same events that have happened it is his divine will and or purpose that all of this transpired albeit you and I think differently.
 

Deuteronomy

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Do you believe as some others, that God saves a person before he can understand enough of the gospel to receive the Holy Spirit? We teach the gospel so people can hear it, and give them the opportunity to believe. Once they believe, they receive the Holy Spirit, and become saved.
Hi shrume/notuptome, I hope you two don't mind if I jump in on this one, but who teaches that a person is saved apart from coming to saving faith in Christ? I believe, along with the Bible, that we are saved (receive "eternal life" .. e.g. John 5:24) when we first "believe". However, apart from God regenerating us (quickening our dead hearts) first, we will never choose to believe. So while I believe that the Bible teaches us that God must act on our behalf to make us alive spiritually first .. Ephesians 2:1-5, I also believe that He chooses to justify/save us when we come to saving faith in Him, not before.

~Deut

..........John 5
..........24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not
..........come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
 

Grandpa

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When a person is saved God seals them with the gift of the Holy Spirit. And Eph 1:13 says that happens after (or when) a person hears the gospel and believes it.
Yes. And where did they get the capacity to believe?


In Eph 2:8-9, the gift is not faith, but salvation (cp Rom 6:23), which we receive BY faith.
All three are gifts. Grace, Salvation and Faith are all gifts of God and not of ourselves.

If any of the three must come from ourselves then the "not of yourselves" statement is a false statement. It would have to be a caveat.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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God gives faith and He distributes the measure of faith to all men (Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith).

I believe this means that all mankind is given this measure of faith. That is how each person has what is needed to not reject the truth of the gospel when it is shared with him or her.

And that is why those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse. They have been given what is necessary and needed in order to believe, but they suppress the truth when it is spoken to them.

Rom 10:17 tells us faith by hearing. The word "by" here is the Greek word ek and it means from, out of.

Rom 10:17 also tells us hearing by the word of God. the word "by" here is the Greek word dia and it denotes the means by which an action passes to its accomplishment.

So when a person "hears" the word of God and does not suppress the truth, God works within that person to accomplish that which His Word intends ... i.e. He brings the increase to that person (1 Cor 3:7). The person who does not suppress the truth has his or her faith strengthened by God as He works in accordance with 1 Cor 3:7.

When a person "hears" the word of God and suppresses the truth, God does not bring the increase and the person remains with "little" faith. He or she is "weak" in faith.





I do not understand why a person not suppressing the truth in unrighteousness equals that person being born again by his or her own will.

God gives faith to all so that when they hear the gospel of salvation they do not reject it. When the gospel is not rejected and the gospel rests in the heart where God brings the increase, how does this in any way, shape, or form mean that this is not the Will of God?
First let me say that you have done about as well with these questions as I have seen. Thank you. Further, as I stated, I am not a calvinist in all thought. I think great arguments for God's total sovereignty AND man's free will choice can be made from Scripture.

BUT.... there are some issues with your analysis. Here is the Romans passage with a little more context.

Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Living Sacrifices to God
12 I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [b]reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.


Note that Paul is addressing BRETHREN. I think when reading this passage it is reasonable to say that the measure of faith given to each one is meant for the MEMBERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, not everyone.


Also, having the knowledge of the Truth and then suppressing the Truth is kinda the OPPOSITE of having faith in the Truth.

Now, why do I believe? Why do you believe? I knew the truth of who Jesus was LONG before I accepted and received Him. So what changed? Truthfully, I have no idea, other than God gave ME the faith to not only acknowledge, but to BELIEVE, and it was HIS Will that I became born again, NOT mine. I would have continued to 'suppress' Him and live a life of sin.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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First let me say that you have done about as well with these questions as I have seen. Thank you. Further, as I stated, I am not a calvinist in all thought. I think great arguments for God's total sovereignty AND man's free will choice can be made from Scripture.

BUT.... there are some issues with your analysis. Here is the Romans passage with a little more context.

Romans 12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Living Sacrifices to God
12 I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [b]reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

Note that Paul is addressing BRETHREN. I think when reading this passage it is reasonable to say that the measure of faith given to each one is meant for the MEMBERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST, not everyone.
Paul could be addressing his "brethren" who are Israelites – see Rom 9:3-4, Rom 10:1, Rom 11:1 and teaching them about God having given to every man the measure of faith.




PennEd said:
Also, having the knowledge of the Truth and then suppressing the Truth is kinda the OPPOSITE of having faith in the Truth.
Having faith does not mean we will not believe a lie. We can sincerely believe (have faith in) something that is not true … and that can cost us very dearly. See the example in Gen 3 where satan told Eve "Ye shall not surely die" and "ye shall be as 'elohiym". Eve believed the lie and all of creation was made subject to depravity in which the creation groans and travails in pain together until now (Rom 8:20-22).




PennEd said:
Now, why do I believe? Why do you believe? I knew the truth of who Jesus was LONG before I accepted and received Him. So what changed? Truthfully, I have no idea, other than God gave ME the faith to not only acknowledge, but to BELIEVE, and it was HIS Will that I became born again, NOT mine. I would have continued to 'suppress' Him and live a life of sin.
Perfect example of suppressing/restraining the truth in unrighteousness.

When you finally did not suppress the truth, God worked within your heart to bring the increase.

Note Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

You finally allowed that seed of God's Word to settle in your heart. The heart is where God works. And the gospel is powerful. The power of God that raised Jesus Christ from the dead works in the believer at the time he or she is born again.


Then we have Rom 1:17: For therein (the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

From faith to faith. It's not from works to faith or from faith to works, but from faith to faith. The justified ones live by faith. It is a continuous walk of faith in this lifetime. So, so amazing!!!
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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So the question I haven't seen answered satisfactorily is where does the faith come from to decide to believe the Gospel?
ROMANS 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 

shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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Hi eternally-gratefull/shrume, how can a person who needs a new heart (a person the Bible describes as being "dead" spiritually .. Ephesians 2:1-3) choose to come to faith in Christ w/o it? For that matter, how can the dead "do" anything?
That's a very common Calvinist argument.

Both the Lord and St. Paul describe those who are outside of Christ in terms such as these:

.........John 3
.........3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

.........Romans 3
.........9 .....both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
.........10 as it is written,
.........“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
.........11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
.........THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
.........12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
.........THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
.........THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

.........1 Corinthians 1
.........18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

........1 Corinthians 2
........14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot
........understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

How can a natural man or woman, whose heart has not been quickened/regenerated to life by God .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, who cannot understand or accept or see the things of God (because such things require a spiritual, rather than a natural, appraisal to accept/understand or even see/perceive) ever choose God? Why would they choose to do so (accept something that, when properly presented to them, seems at best, "foolishness", to them)?

Thanks!

~Deut

.........Ephesians 2
.........1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
.........2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
.........of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
.........3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind,
.........and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
.........4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
.........5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
Calvinists overstate the fallen nature of mankind. There is no Bible verse that says the fallen nature of mankind keeps people from making a good choice. Quite the opposite. When we read the Bible in a simple and straightforward way, we can see that God asks fallen people to choose Him and salvation. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that God is upset and angry when unsaved people do not make the choice to do good. Making the choice to live forever instead of die is a "naturally" wise choice, like eating healthy and exercising to live better and longer are "naturally" wise choices. Those wise choices do not take divine intervention.

Also, no Calvinist has a good answer for scripture like 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11; Deut 30:19. I believe those scripture are true as written.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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For that matter, how can the dead "do" anything?
"Dead" should be properly understood in this context, and not exaggerated. How could God hold anyone accountable, if none could respond to the Gospel? Do you see how absurd the meaning of "dead" has become under Reformed Theology?
 

shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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Yes. And where did they get the capacity to believe?
From within themselves. You can call it God-given if you like, but God gives the capacity to believe to every person. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

All three are gifts. Grace, Salvation and Faith are all gifts of God and not of ourselves.
Where does the Bible say faith (or the capacity to have it) is a gift? If you think Eph 2:8 says it, I believe you are misunderstanding that verse. The gift is salvation BY faith.

If any of the three must come from ourselves then the "not of yourselves" statement is a false statement. It would have to be a caveat.
God does ask something from us in order to be saved, but He asks about the least thing He could. The decision to have faith in Christ.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
 

shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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You are missing out on the point in that God already knows the sheep and the goats.
For everyone who has gone before, that's true. For people who have not died yet, I do not think that's true. God want's everyone to repent.

In other words he is saving some and condemning others.
God is saving people who choose to believe on Jesus Christ, and those who do not choose to believe on Christ He will condemn. People who never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ will be judged by their works, by how they lived their lives.

As in the same events that have happened it is his divine will and or purpose that all of this transpired albeit you and I think differently.
We certainly do.

I do not believe it was God's "divine will and purpose" for 9/11, for Columbine, for the shooting that happened today, every time a woman is raped or someone is murdered, etc. It is also not God's "divine will and purpose" to indiscriminately send people to hell "just because He is God and we're not".
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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Paul could be addressing his "brethren" who are Israelites – see Rom 9:3-4, Rom 10:1, Rom 11:1 and teaching them about God having given to every man the measure of faith.





Having faith does not mean we will not believe a lie. We can sincerely believe (have faith in) something that is not true … and that can cost us very dearly. See the example in Gen 3 where satan told Eve "Ye shall not surely die" and "ye shall be as 'elohiym". Eve believed the lie and all of creation was made subject to depravity in which the creation groans and travails in pain together until now (Rom 8:20-22).





Perfect example of suppressing/restraining the truth in unrighteousness.

When you finally did not suppress the truth, God worked within your heart to bring the increase.

Note Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

You finally allowed that seed of God's Word to settle in your heart. The heart is where God works. And the gospel is powerful. The power of God that raised Jesus Christ from the dead works in the believer at the time he or she is born again.

Then we have Rom 1:17: For therein (the gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

From faith to faith. It's not from works to faith or from faith to works, but from faith to faith. The justified ones live by faith. It is a continuous walk of faith in this lifetime. So, so amazing!!!
Well Paul could have been using the term brethren in the generic sense except he goes on to explain that the measure of faith given to the brethren is tied up with the various gifts that each brother and sister bring to the body. THESE ARE CHRISTIANS HE IS REFERENCING, NOT everyone.
I mean, here it is:
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Also, God does NOT heal our hearts. Our hearts are desperately wicked. God gives us a NEW heart, and makes us a NEW creation.
 

carl11

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Oct 20, 2017
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For everyone who has gone before, that's true. For people who have not died yet, I do not think that's true. God want's everyone to repent

I do not believe it was God's "divine will and purpose" for 9/11, for Columbine, for the shooting that happened today, every time a woman is raped or someone is murdered, etc. It is also not God's "divine will and purpose" to indiscriminately send people to hell "just because He is God and we're not".
Sure God would love for all to repent but that is not going to happen. So those who have not died yet, do you not believe that God already knows who his sheep are and the goats ? I mean after all he is the Alpha and Omega...etc

So if you do not think it was God's divine will and or purpose on these tragedies mentioned above then what do you call it ? Man's evil sin nature ?
 

carl11

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"Dead" should be properly understood in this context, and not exaggerated. How could God hold anyone accountable, if none could respond to the Gospel? Do you see how absurd the meaning of "dead" has become under Reformed Theology?
You have a very logical point and yet the Bible declares that everyone is dead liken unto a dead corpse. But God has a reason for all of this albeit none of us understand. [Is. 55:9, Rom. 9:21, Deut. 29:29]
 

shrume

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Jun 26, 2017
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Sure God would love for all to repent but that is not going to happen. So those who have not died yet, do you not believe that God already knows who his sheep are and the goats ? I mean after all he is the Alpha and Omega...etc
The short answer is “no, He does not already know”. I’ll explain more another time, but I’m heading for bed.

So if you do not think it was God's divine will and or purpose on these tragedies mentioned above then what do you call it ? Man's evil sin nature ?
There is a devil currently in control of this world (Luke 4:5-6; 2 Cor 4:4; 1 John 5:19).
 

Deuteronomy

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"Dead" should be properly understood in this context, and not exaggerated. How could God hold anyone accountable, if none could respond to the Gospel? Do you see how absurd the meaning of "dead" has become under Reformed Theology?
Hi Nehemiah6, I believe that all could choose to respond positively to the Gospel, but because God granted us free will, none do so (unless God steps in first).

Free will, after all, is the ability to choose to do what we desire most at a given moment in time. If those who have no desire for God go ahead and choose Him anyway, they would be acting 'against' their free will, not according to it (and outside of God changing us/quickening our hearts and drawing us to His Son, none will know, understand, accept or come to Him).

On the flip-side, 'all' who are drawn* by the Father and given to His Son .. John 6:44 will come to Him and be saved, and none of these "drawn-ones"* will ever be lost (according to the Bible anyway :)).

.........."ALL that the Father gives to Me WILL come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me,
...........I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)

~Deut

..........John 6
..........65 No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him by the Father.



*As a point of interest, ἑλκύω [helkuo], which is translated as "draws" in John 6:44, never means to "woo" or to "entice", Biblically -or- extra-Biblically. Rather, it means to drag, drag off, impel, lead, draw by an inward force or power, etc. (e.g. Peter ἑλκύω "drew" his sword. Paul and Silas were ἑλκύω "dragged" before the authorities in the marketplace, etc.). Rather, δελεάζω [deleazo] (e.g. James 1:14; 2 Peter 2:18) is the word that means to lure, entice or woo.
 

Danny1988

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It's because many love the world more than GOD. Whoever loves the world more than GOD, GOD considers his enemy.
That's absolutely true, my point is why do they love the world and others love God more. I believe it comes back to the fact that God left them in their fallen sinful condition and He didn't open their spiritual eyes so they are not able to love God as they are slaves to their sin
 

Nehemiah6

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Hi Nehemiah6, I believe that all could choose to respond positively to the Gospel, but because God granted us free will, none do so (unless God steps in first).
Of course. And how does God "step in"? Through the preaching of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation, Rom 1:16) and through the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit (which is one of the main reasons that He is here on earth).

The real issue is "Why do Calvinists ignore these two major factors which bring sinners to the Savior?" And the only answer is because it would destroy their theology. Now let's see how this works in Scripture (which is a pattern for all time) so that the issue is settled.

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVINCED AND CONVICTED
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL IS PROCLAIMED
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL REPENT AND BELIEVE
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

THE FULL GOSPEL IS PREACHED IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

SINNERS ARE SAVED, BAPTIZED, AND ADDED TO THE CHURCH
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Now do you see any "free will issues" here? God had stepped in already, and this is a pattern for the future.