Assembling

[preston39]

I am aware of some folks who have just about stopped attending any church because of;
Many treating it like a social event instead of devotion to Christ
Infighting for church control
One church doesn't believe in baptism ( various reasons)
One doesn't believe repentance is needed
One believes in OSAS
etc.

Are any of these a basis for not attending church for the right purpose?
I know I don't like attending where any of the above is present. But, it is a challenge to find a church today which sticks with G-d's word.

 

[Noose]

There is no daily sacrifice for 2000 years already. And it was not any future antichrist who made it stop.

It was Christ - theologically and Titus - by force.

Dan 8:
11It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down.12Because of rebellion, the Lord’s peoplea and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

So you do the math, 2300 evenings and mornings till everything is restored- it surely can't be 70AD, trust me.

You get several concepts wrong:
1. Daily sacrifice is not the physical daily sacrifice but worship- the antichrist stops this because he flings the truth to the ground/ occupies the hearts of the people (temple of God) so that he gets to be worshiped as if he was God.

2. The statement attributed to the messiah "..He shall be cut off from the land of the living.." has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus' death on the cross. It is broader than what many would admit or even think. It has everything to do with:

Daniel 7:25
He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

And

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:8 perhaps is the most misunderstood and mistranslated verse in the entire bible.

 

[Noose]

There is no daily sacrifice for 2000 years already. And it was not any future antichrist who made it stop.

It was Christ - theologically and Titus - by force.

It is not christ who takes away the daily sacrifice- i have shown you and i will show again:

Dan 11:30..Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation. 32With flattery he will corrupt those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Dan 8: 11 It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And on account of rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did.

The verses above don't describe Christ but the antichrist- he is the one that abolishes the daily sacrifice.
And all these have nothing to do with Titus because it concerns the time of the end, the very end when everything is restored and the sanctuary cleansed.

 

[trofimus]

It is not christ who takes away the daily sacrifice- i have shown you and i will show again:

Dan 11:30..Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation. 32With flattery he will corrupt those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Dan 8: 11 It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And on account of rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did.

The verses above don't describe Christ but the antichrist- he is the one that abolishes the daily sacrifice.
And all these have nothing to do with Titus because it concerns the time of the end, the very end when everything is restored and the sanctuary cleansed.

Do you accept the fact that there is no daily sacrifice anymore?

If you do, it cannot be any future antichrist who will do that. It has happened in the past.

 

[Ralph-]

Does total destruction = set aside? No, yet they both apply to the law.

I've been keeping my mouth shut about this but since you have brought it up....

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

What he did come to do was to abolish various literal stipulations of the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2673&t=KJV

I haven't corrected anybody, or made the point yet, but since you brought it up let everybody understand that the law has not been destroyed, it has been made obsolete (abolished); not the requirements of the law (for all of the requirements of the law are met through faith in Christ, not removed). They remain. What is obsolete is the WAY of the written word. It had no power to cause the people of God to obey the law. It has been replaced by the WAY of the Spirit (Romans 7:6). That new way does have the power to cause the people of God to obey the law.

 

[Ralph-]

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

What he did come to do was to abolish various literal stipulations of the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2673&t=KJV

As an example, Christ did not destroy the requirement for sacrifice for sin. But he did abolish the old way that it was done.

That's an example we can all understand. Jesus did not come to destroy the requirements of the law. But various literal ways to keep those requirements have been abolished (set aside as obsolete and unneeded now, not destroyed) by his coming.

 

[Noose]

Do you accept the fact that there is no daily sacrifice anymore?

If you do, it cannot be any future antichrist who will do that. It has happened in the past.

Daily sacrifice is worship- i can't accept that there is no worship today but i'd say majority of people who worship have no idea who they worship because of the antichrist's lies.
The antichrist will eventually overcome God's people through the lies:

Daniel 12:7
And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed."

Dan 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High,intending to change the set times and laws, and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

This has nothing to do with Titus

 

[Ralph-]

See, we could talk about these kinds of these among ourselves in a true meeting of the saints, but they would not be what divides us because they would not be the most important thing. The cement that would hold us together in the bond of the Spirit would be our common experience of knowing God more and more and living for him more and more in our daily lives. The focus would be on relationship with God, not on knowledge of God. The knowledge part would only be one tool to steer us into a deeper relationship with God through the Holy Spirit and toward that which matters in the Christian faith-living for him.

I will not attend a church that does not have a daily relationship with God through the Holy Spirit as it's primary goal for it's members.

"17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking (the activities of cold, dead 'religion'), but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. "-Romans 14:17-19

If a church wants to pigeon hole doctrines, or ministries, or various gifts, or programs, or activities as the primary reason they exist I will not attend. Those things are only the tools to get us to that which counts.

 

[Noose]

Do you accept the fact that there is no daily sacrifice anymore?

If you do, it cannot be any future antichrist who will do that. It has happened in the past.

The practice of slaughtering heifers did not stop in 70AD, it stopped in 586BC when Jerusalem and Judea were desecrated by Nebuchadnezzar. Israelites were captives for 70 years- the levitical line couldn't stand after that. Even with restoration after, it was not 100% because God was against it for a long time; how many times did God lament about not wanting the fat of the lamb but being kind to the opressed? And even from that time, there has been another serious attack and discretion of the temple before Jesus came.

 

[Noose]

See, we could talk about these kinds of these among ourselves in a true meeting of the saints, but they would not be what divides us because they would not be the most important thing. The cement that would hold us together in the bond of the Spirit would be our common experience of knowing God more and more and living for him more and more in our daily lives. The focus would be on relationship with God, not on knowledge of God. The knowledge part would only be one tool to steer us into a deeper relationship with God through the Holy Spirit and toward that which matters in the Christian faith-living for him.

I will not attend a church that does not have a daily relationship with God through the Holy Spirit as it's primary goal for it's members.

"17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking (the activities of cold, dead 'religion'), but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. "-Romans 14:17-19

If a church wants to pigeon hole doctrines, or ministries, or various gifts, or programs, or activities as the primary reason they exist I will not attend. Those things are only the tools to get us to that which counts.

This kind of church is within you. You will not get it anywhere in the world.

 

[Ralph-]

This kind of church is within you. You will not get it anywhere in the world.

You're probably right. Why is that?

 

[Noose]

You're probably right. Why is that?

The antichrist has been given authority over all the world and he works in deception. As per Daniel's prophesy, he (antichrist) will overcome God's people and fling the truth to the ground, and he will be successful until the end that's decreed on him comes.

Christians are supposed to be the light of the world, yet immediately after tribulations by the antichrist, the sun, the stars and the moon will stop giving their light at the end- this simply means there will be no truth at the end, we are continually being encompassed by darkness (lies) yet a small percentage, will saved from the turmoil (church of Philadelphia)

 

[trofimus]

The practice of slaughtering heifers did not stop in 70AD, it stopped in 586BC when Jerusalem and Judea were desecrated by Nebuchadnezzar. Israelites were captives for 70 years- the levitical line couldn't stand after that. Even with restoration after, it was not 100% because God was against it for a long time; how many times did God lament about not wanting the fat of the lamb but being kind to the opressed? And even from that time, there has been another serious attack and discretion of the temple before Jesus came.

So, it has ceased. In the past. Not in the future.

If you say that it ceased even before Christ, it still stands true that it does not exist today. There is no need for any future antichrist to come and cease it.

 

[Latour]

The antichrist has been given authority over all the world and he works in deception. As per Daniel's prophesy, he (antichrist) will overcome God's people and fling the truth to the ground, and he will be successful until the end that's decreed on him comes.

Christians are supposed to be the light of the world, yet immediately after tribulations by the antichrist, the sun, the stars and the moon will stop giving their light at the end- this simply means there will be no truth at the end, we are continually being encompassed by darkness (lies) yet a small percentage, will saved from the turmoil (church of Philadelphia)

But it says...and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. The saints will be overcome...as in...kill them.

 

[Noose]

So, it has ceased. In the past. Not in the future.

If you say that it ceased even before Christ, it still stands true that it does not exist today.

But that's not what that prophesy is talking about, it is talking about worship. The antichrist indwelling the hearts of the people (temple of God) and receiving worship as if he is God is what it means 'taking the daily sacrifice and the abomination that makes desolate'. It is nothing physical yet with an understanding you can know when it happened and when it's going to end:

Dan 8:12 And on account of rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did. 13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long until the fulfillment of the vision of the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host to be trampled?”14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

It is until 2300 evenings and mornings then the sanctuary will be restored. This is a long time but trust me, we are almost over.

 

[Noose]

But it says...and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. The saints will be overcome...as in...kill them.

They will be overcome by deception from the antichrist but you must understand that we are saved by grace. The statement by Jesus "..24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. .." is true. It doesn't mean that people will recognize, it means people will fall for it but are saved by grace those that believe that Christ came in flesh and died for their sins and was raised on the third day- this is the basic belief.

But many fall for the lies- starting with worshiping in spirit and truth. Worshiping has nothing to do with movement of any muscle, it simply means understanding God and knowing the truth. It is not soft songs and it is not emotional songs with clenched fists and tears rolling. This is just one example.

There are two groups of Christians: The church of Smyrna or figuratively Jerusalem. These are the majority of Christians and these people don't know God and they don't have the understanding of God. These will undergo the tribulation by the antichrist and they also die for their faith. God puts them through the fire as to refine their faith.

The other group is the church of Philadelphia or figuratively the remnant of Judah. These are very few and they know God/truth. They are the 144k believers. They will be protected from the tribulation by the antichrist meaning that they won't fall for the lies.

The reason Jesus said "if you see Jerusalem surrounded, let those in Judea flee.."

So, yes the antichrist overcomes the majority of the christians but there are some that God has set aside. It follows the same script that Daniel and friends underwent:

Jer 24
1After Jehoiachina son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.

3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”

“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”

4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.b 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a cursec and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I've been keeping my mouth shut about this but since you have brought it up....

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

What he did come to do was to abolish various literal stipulations of the law: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2673&t=KJV

I haven't corrected anybody, or made the point yet, but since you brought it up let everybody understand that the law has not been destroyed, it has been made obsolete (abolished); not the requirements of the law (for all of the requirements of the law are met through faith in Christ, not removed). They remain. What is obsolete is the WAY of the written word. It had no power to cause the people of God to obey the law. It has been replaced by the WAY of the Spirit (Romans 7:6). That new way does have the power to cause the people of God to obey the law.

The new way has the power to cause people to do the righteousness required by the law, not obey the law (the letter). Language matters. If you are required to obey the law, then you are required to observe the sabbath. Obeying Christ's law fulfills the righteousness required by the 4th commandment, apart from obeying the letter. So righteousness is attained apart from the law.

But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets— Romans 3:21​

 

[Latour]

They will be overcome by deception from the antichrist but you must understand that we are saved by grace. The statement by Jesus "..24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. .." is true. It doesn't mean that people will recognize, it means people will fall for it but are saved by grace those that believe that Christ came in flesh and died for their sins and was raised on the third day- this is the basic belief.

But many fall for the lies- starting with worshiping in spirit and truth. Worshiping has nothing to do with movement of any muscle, it simply means understanding God and knowing the truth. It is not soft songs and it is not emotional songs with clenched fists and tears rolling. This is just one example.

There are two groups of Christians: The church of Smyrna or figuratively Jerusalem. These are the majority of Christians and these people don't know God and they don't have the understanding of God. These will undergo the tribulation by the antichrist and they also die for their faith. God puts them through the fire as to refine their faith.

The other group is the church of Philadelphia or figuratively the remnant of Judah. These are very few and they know God/truth. They are the 144k believers. They will be protected from the tribulation by the antichrist meaning that they won't fall for the lies.

The reason Jesus said "if you see Jerusalem surrounded, let those in Judea flee.."

So, yes the antichrist overcomes the majority of the christians but there are some that God has set aside. It follows the same script that Daniel and friends underwent:

Jer 24
1After Jehoiachina son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.

3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”

“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”

4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.b 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.

8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a cursec and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”

Daniel 11: 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.


34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.


35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

[Noose]

Daniel 11: 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.


34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.


35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

This version is easier to understand (for me):

Dan 11:33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

Like i said, two groups of believers; Unfaithful believers will fall by the sword so as to refine their faith. Because they don't know God fully, they end up worshiping the antichrist and God at the same time- this is an abomination/idol worship.
The other group (very few believers) are purified and won't fall by the sword.

Jeremiah 24 paints a very clear picture.

The 144k will be scattered all over the earth, they can't form a church.

 

[beta]

That is good, but for me, the deception is wide spread and not limited to RCC.

Yes, and that is what I say too, starting with RC the mother church and spreading to protestant Harlot churches.