The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Ahwatukee]

you know Ahwatukee, I wonder why those do not see the context of the Breath of God to make man living being as in Gen 1:26 and 2:7 which says God breathed into his nostril the breath of life and man became living soul. This is the state of man before sin was in him. NO death then after the fall cain kills his brother and in ten 4:10 "the voice of thy brothers blood cries unto me from the ground".

the breath of life is given to everyone to become a living being which even unsaved people has now. The Born again experience is life free from sin and now the flesh will die but we have hope of life eternal or with God forever as it was to be from the beginning . This is why annihilationism make no since . we see added man speaking to God from the ground as we heard Jesus speak about in Luke concerning the "certain Rich man" who also spoke in the state of death.

Good evening CS1!

You're preaching to the choir! I don't know, but it seems to me that these people who debate about these Biblical topics, do so purposely knowing that what they are claiming is not the truth. I mean, some of their reasonings are just flat out ridiculous! I chalk it to at least the following scripture:

"For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to the own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves, and indeed they will turn away from hearing the truth, and will be turned aside unto myths." 2 Tim.2:3-4

Why else would people claim annihilation and soul-sleep with so much obvious scripture that disproves their claim.

We have told them the truth, but it seems that they are going to have to find out for themselves when the Lord reveals it to them.

 

[CS1]

Good evening CS1!

You're preaching to the choir! I don't know, but it seems to me that these people who debate about these Biblical topics, do so purposely knowing that what they are claiming is not the truth. I mean, some of their reasonings are just flat out ridiculous! I chalk it to at least the following scripture:

"For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to the own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves, and indeed they will turn away from hearing the truth, and will be turned aside unto myths." 2 Tim.2:3-4

Why else would people claim annihilation and soul-sleep with so much obvious scripture that disproves their claim.

We have told them the truth, but it seems that they are going to have to find out for themselves when the Lord reveals it to them.

yea I wanted to hear your thoughts thank you

 

[PennEd]

I think I might try ben. I'll start here. I'll limit my posts ONLY to replies to you.

God made everything to bring forth of its own kind, including adam and eve. Adam and eve died on the day they ate the fruit. But wait a minute...they didn't die on the day they ate of the fruit, so what am I missing? On the day you eat of it, you will surely die. Yet not only did they not die on that day, they lived hundreds and hundreds of years longer. Explain, ben.

I know I'm not Ben, but I'd like to take a stab at this one. Here's a possible explanation:

In Psalm 90 and 2 Peter 3 we learn that "with the Lord, a day is like a thousand yrs, and a thousand yrs are like a day".

Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

So from the Lord's perspective, Adam fell 70 yrs short of living an entire "day", and indeed died on the "day" he ate of the fruit.

On a side note, I love that God's patience is so awesome and merciful with desiring men to repent, that He held off judgement until the oldest man to ever live (969yrs) had died. Methuselah means "his death shall bring".

 

[shrume]

I'll probably be raked over the coals for this, but given all the other scriptures that define death, and what death is, and say what will happen to the unsaved (die, perish, cut off, burn up like chaff, be no more, etc) I believe that phrase in Rev 20:10 is hyperbole.

Well...I have to say that I think you maybe should be raked over the coals for it!

The unsaved humans are one story.
A being like satan (and the two men he indwells) are a different story. The reason satan appears to be a different story to me is that he amazingly does seem to somehow have eternal life apart from God. I can't understand or explain it, but it does appear so.

Eze 28:
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

From those verses it is apparent to me that the devil will be destroyed.

 

[shrume]

There are some other verses that seem to support it, not just the one in Mathew.
There's what was said to the theif on the cross.

The comma is in the wrong place.

Luke 23:
43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Jesus phrased it that way for emphasis. He wanted the thief to know that he will be in paradise.

Both Jesus and the thief died that day. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus Christ from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection. Also, paradise (the kingdom) is not here yet. Jesus will set up the kingdom after he returns to earth. Then is when the resurrection of the just will occur, then is when the thief will be resurrected into paradise.

There's also the ones under the altar in Revelation.

That is a vision, given to John, signifying that it will be awhile before those killed for their faith during the trib will be resurrected.

And paul said he would prefer to be away from his body and home with the Lord.

Me too! But it does not happen at death. The Bible clearly states that death is an enemy (1 Cor 15:26).

I guess it seems to me like His resurrection changed it somehow, but there's not enough (or not enough that's extremely specific) to make me adamant on it...

Jesus' resurrection did not change what death is.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

GM penned!
I called you pennePastaEd earlier. teehee. I expected a retaliation, like...oh, hey there Shunnedwithmace!

I think...this idea, while interesting, will not really fly...
When I read the word "like" I typically think something is not being overtly stated but more of a...description is being made - or an explanation for something difficult to conceive of in regards to a spiritual truth, God, heaven or the Kingdom of heaven. (The kingdom of heaven is like, I saw one looking like a son of man, feet looking like polished bronze, etc.)

So you don't typically go back and take out the word "like" and then say: The Kingdom of heaven IS a woman who thus and thus.
Or, his feet WERE of the material of polished bronze.

So you have taken a thousand years is like and changed it to a thousand years is. Except you haven't even done that. You've said, a day IS a thousand years, (or thereabouts, give or take 50 or 70 years. )

It's become more vague and loose.

And is this the only place in the bible where you would replace the word "day" with "1,000 years" or vice versa?

And numbers are used to measure. You're 70 shy of accurate. That's another thing that makes this doubtful to me.

I think it's good thinking, but I think it won't fly.

 

[PennEd]

Since the Bible clearly states that in death there is no consciousness - this story has to be figurative or you have a BIG contradiction in scripture. The NT should line up with what the OT says about death. The story of the rich man and Lazarus starts off in the very similar way of the parable of the prodigal son . . . A certain man had two sons; the unjust steward . . . Luke 16:1 There was a certain rich man; then Luke 16:19, 20 There was a certain rich man - there was a certain beggar - In context, Jesus has been addressing the Pharisees in parables from the beginning of Luke 15: the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son and the unjust steward. Luke 16:14 - the Pharisees, who loved money (were covetous), heard him and ridiculed him. In verse 15, Jesus shows them how their values were ungodly - that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." So the following parable of the rich man and Lazarus perfectly illustrates for them the difference between what they esteemed and what God esteemed. . . . Jesus sure didn't intend to contradict OT scripture concerning death.

Man is body and soul until he becomes born again then he is body, soul, and spirit - body is the flesh, soul is the breath, and spirit is the gift of holy spirit God gives us when we are born again. Now, if I do not have breath life, my body is dead (what Jesus metaphorically refers to as "sleep") and the spirit God gave me goes back to him. (Ecc. 12:7) Although a three part being that three part being does not separate itself - my spirit doesn't go walking around by itself nor does my soul walk around by itself, etc. These parts make up the whole and cannot be separated . . these parts make up the totality of who you are.

Nevertheless man being in honor abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. . . . Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. Psalm 49:12,14

What man is he that lives, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah Psalm 89:48

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5

What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? Psalm30:9

Shall your lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction? Shall your wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalm 88:11,12

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalm 115:17

His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4

For the grave cannot praise you, death can not celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. Isaiah 38:18

So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12 . . . UNTIL Christ returns and calls us out.

So in death there is only silence, with no remembrance, no thoughts, no praise, no hope, no celebration.

I do not believe the rich man - Lazarus account is a parable, although I recognize that it is possible, especially since Matthew records that after the Pharisees said Jesus did works by Satan's power, He would only speak to them in parables.

But the overarching question is what does it matter if it is a parable or not? He is STILL laying the principle down that there will be conscious existence after physical death.
Not even remotely sure how that can be spun any other way.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Eze 28:
16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

From those verses it is apparent to me that the devil will be destroyed.

Yes, it seems apparent to me too.
And then in Revelation, it is apparent to me that he will be tormented forever and ever.
Is there any possible way to keep from explaining a verse away and still maintain your belief?

Both sides explain away whatever wars with their belief. Both sides do it.
And once you've explained something away, you've dismissed it as not relevant because you can't fit it in. You've stopped your mind from thinking about how to solve the problem. It's not smart. It's not prudent or safe or sound.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I do not believe the rich man - Lazarus account is a parable, although I recognize that it is possible, especially since Matthew records that after the Pharisees said Jesus did works by Satan's power, He would only speak to them in parables.

But the overarching question is what does it matter if it is a parable or not? He is STILL laying the principle down that there will be conscious existence after physical death.
Not even remotely sure how that can be spun any other way.

The OT and the NT are different in this. The OT was always sleep/grave/ sheol.
Some explain away the change in the NT and some explain away the statements in the OT.
Again.

 

[PennEd]

GM penned!
I called you pennePastaEd earlier. teehee. I expected a retaliation, like...oh, hey there Shunnedwithmace!

I think...this idea, while interesting, will not really fly...
When I read the word "like" I typically think something is not being overtly stated but more of a...description is being made - or an explanation for something difficult to conceive of in regards to a spiritual truth, God, heaven or the Kingdom of heaven. (The kingdom of heaven is like, I saw one looking like a son of man, feet looking like polished bronze, etc.)

So you don't typically go back and take out the word "like" and then say: The Kingdom of heaven IS a woman who thus and thus.
Or, his feet WERE of the material of polished bronze.

So you have taken a thousand years is like and changed it to a thousand years is. Except you haven't even done that. You've said, a day IS a thousand years, (or thereabouts, give or take 50 or 70 years. )

It's become more vague and loose.

And is this the only place in the bible where you would replace the word "day" with "1,000 years" or vice versa?

And numbers are used to measure. You're 70 shy of accurate. That's another thing that makes this doubtful to me.

I think it's good thinking, but I think it won't fly.

Good morning Stunned. The shy 70 yrs is exactly the point! Adam didn't live past the thousandth year, thereby verifying that he had indeed, from God's perspective, died on the same day he ate the fruit.

I'm actually one of those nuts that think the thousand yrs is a day is very significant. I think the 7 day week of creation correlates to human history.

We have had just about 6000 yrs of recorded human history. I believe the 1000 yrs of Christ's millennial Kingdom is the 7000th year. Thus fulfilling the entire week.

Read Hoses 6:1 and try and figure out what the days mean in verse 2. What other explanation than after 2000 yrs we will live in His sight means?

I know, I know, that is waaaay out there!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is at least better...you have a verse in Hosea you think supports the thought. Two is better than one! You should have tried to give two witnesses/verses from the beginning! Do you have a third verse to support the thought? (It's okay if you don't but best if you do).
I'll go look at Hosea 6:1 now.

 

[shrume]

Yes, it seems apparent to me too.
And then in Revelation, it is apparent to me that he will be tormented forever and ever.
Is there any possible way to keep from explaining a verse away and still maintain your belief?

Both sides explain away whatever wars with their belief. Both sides do it.
And once you've explained something away, you've dismissed it as not relevant because you can't fit it in. You've stopped your mind from thinking about how to solve the problem. It's not smart. It's not prudent or safe or sound.

SBG, do you believe it's possible to make sense out of what the Bible teaches on different subjects?

How do you propose to solve this apparent contradiction?

I can "fit it in" because some verses ARE allegorical and/or hyperbolic. The Bible is CLEAR that death is the absence of life, and that when people die, they are dead, with no thought, no work, no emotion, no praise of God, etc.

I cannot WAIT or the Lord to return! Then all these theological arguments will cease. We will all know the truth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Okay, I looked at the verse penned. See! Now you do not appear nuts to me! I can agree or disagree, whichever, but now I can see that you at least do have verses that you think support the idea! In other words, I may or may not be convinced but at least I can't call you a nut. And now the idea is kicking around in my head too and I may actually find a third verse in my travels to add (and I can do that even IF I am still not convinced, because that's how God works, line upon line.)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

SBG, do you believe it's possible to make sense out of what the Bible teaches on different subjects?

YES!

How do you propose to solve this apparent contradiction?

By examining it very carefully and by asking God: what am I missing here, what am I not seeing here?

I can "fit it in" because some verses ARE allegorical and/or hyperbolic. The Bible is CLEAR that death is the absence of life, and that when people die, they are dead, with no thought, no work, no emotion, no praise of God, etc.

Yes, it does say these things in the OT. There is a lot of support for some things having changed, including: I make all things new, will you see it? (my paraphrase).

By shrume: I cannot WAIT or the Lord to return! Then all these theological arguments will cease. We will all know the truth.

Brother, there are some days that I desire so much for Him to come for us that I feel I could almost, almost, almost, fly away to Him!

 

[PennEd]

Okay, I looked at the verse penned. See! Now you do not appear nuts to me! I can agree or disagree, whichever, but now I can see that you at least do have verses that you think support the idea! In other words, I may or may not be convinced but at least I can't call you a nut. And now the idea is kicking around in my head too and I may actually find a third verse in my travels to add (and I can do that even IF I am still not convinced, because that's how God works, line upon line.)

No. You can still call me a nut! I admit it sounds nutty.
I think there are a number of verses referring to the "last days" . Such as, "In the last days men will be or do fill in the blank..." If I'm stretching this far, no reaso, not to stretch in thinking these things will occur in the last couple of 2000 yr days.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No. You can still call me a nut! I admit it sounds nutty.
I think there are a number of verses referring to the "last days" . Such as, "In the last days men will be or do fill in the blank..." If I'm stretching this far, no reaso, not to stretch in thinking these things will occur in the last couple of 2000 yr days.

And would the millennium be the very last day?

 

[PennEd]

SBG, do you believe it's possible to make sense out of what the Bible teaches on different subjects?

How do you propose to solve this apparent contradiction?

I can "fit it in" because some verses ARE allegorical and/or hyperbolic. The Bible is CLEAR that death is the absence of life, and that when people die, they are dead, with no thought, no work, no emotion, no praise of God, etc.

I cannot WAIT or the Lord to return! Then all these theological arguments will cease. We will all know the truth.

GAARRROOAN!! Sorry. It's an involuntary reflex for me to groan when I see people allegorozing Scripture!

Should we allegorize the plagues of Egypt? How about Samson killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass? Jonah in a whales belly 3 days?

What about God becoming flesh, allowing Himself to be tortured, crucified, die, AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD?

See, when WE choose to allegorize Scripture, there is no end to it. We essentially make ourselves the arbiter of what is true and what is an allegory.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And would the millennium be the very last day?

Micah said: And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths " For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

GAARRROOAN!! Sorry. It's an involuntary reflex for me to groan when I see people allegorozing Scripture!

Should we allegorize the plagues of Egypt? How about Samson killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass? Jonah in a whales belly 3 days?

What about God becoming flesh, allowing Himself to be tortured, crucified, die, AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD?

See, when WE choose to allegorize Scripture, there is no end to it. We essentially make ourselves the arbiter of what is true and what is an allegory.

I do agree that we should not use allegory as a means to dismiss a verse because it does not fit into what we are building...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But I also think that spiritual truths explained with relatable human/temporal things is almost the only way TO explain what is spirit and truth...