The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thank you. Same here Stunnedbygrace, it is nice to meet you as well.
I agree with you by the way.
Is there a passage that tells us where those without faith ended up prior to Christ? I'm also looking for such a passage on my own.

Off the top of my head...I only recall the OT saying they went to sheol/the grave and slept. I've never noted that they went anywhere else in my reading. But I will help you look.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It is because you, like others here, view the word "death" as unconsciousness, non-existence. Until you understand the scriptural meaning of death relating to ones state of being in relation to God, then you will always be in error.

We already know from "the rich man and Lazarus" that both men died, the bodies being buried and yet there spirits were conscious and aware somewhere else. You people however, have changed it into a parable and that because if it is true, then it destroys your whole position. But you can be sure that the rich man and Lazarus was a literal event that the Lord revealed to demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after death of both the righteous and the wicked and that there is on-going punishment for the wicked.

Since the Bible clearly states that in death there is no consciousness - this story has to be figurative or you have a BIG contradiction in scripture. The NT should line up with what the OT says about death. The story of the rich man and Lazarus starts off in the very similar way of the parable of the prodigal son . . . A certain man had two sons; the unjust steward . . . Luke 16:1 There was a certain rich man; then Luke 16:19, 20 There was a certain rich man - there was a certain beggar - In context, Jesus has been addressing the Pharisees in parables from the beginning of Luke 15: the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son and the unjust steward. Luke 16:14 - the Pharisees, who loved money (were covetous), heard him and ridiculed him. In verse 15, Jesus shows them how their values were ungodly - that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." So the following parable of the rich man and Lazarus perfectly illustrates for them the difference between what they esteemed and what God esteemed. . . . Jesus sure didn't intend to contradict OT scripture concerning death.

It's pretty pathetic of those who always turn to Eccl.9:5 to prove their point, while ignoring all the other available scriptures which demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit after death. Let's look at that scripture:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a portion in all that is done under the sun.

Since humans are made up of body, soul and spirit (Hebs.4:12), everywhere in scripture where the person who is dead and referred to as "sleeping" it is referring only to the body, not spirit. That is the only correct exegetical conclusion that one can come to seeing that we have other scriptures which demonstrate the spirit of both the righteous and wicked being conscious and aware after the death of the body. Therefore, when Eccl.9:5 says, "the dead known nothing" it is in reference to the body, which is said to be sleeping, while the spirit is elsewhere conscious and aware. Again I would remind you of the rich man who died and whose spirit was found in Hades in torment in flame. Furthermore, the rest of the scripture says "they have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten" which is because they are no longer alive on the earth and has nothing to do regarding the departure of the spirit. Your exegesis is incomplete and that because you only look at one example and then ignore the rest.

Stop thinking of "death" and "destruction" as being non-existent, because I guarantee you that is not the case.

Man is body and soul until he becomes born again then he is body, soul, and spirit - body is the flesh, soul is the breath, and spirit is the gift of holy spirit God gives us when we are born again. Now, if I do not have breath life, my body is dead (what Jesus metaphorically refers to as "sleep") and the spirit God gave me goes back to him. (Ecc. 12:7) Although a three part being that three part being does not separate itself - my spirit doesn't go walking around by itself nor does my soul walk around by itself, etc. These parts make up the whole and cannot be separated . . these parts make up the totality of who you are.

Nevertheless man being in honor abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. . . . Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. Psalm 49:12,14

What man is he that lives, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah Psalm 89:48

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5

What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? Psalm30:9

Shall your lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction? Shall your wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalm 88:11,12

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalm 115:17

His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4

For the grave cannot praise you, death can not celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. Isaiah 38:18

So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12 . . . UNTIL Christ returns and calls us out.

So in death there is only silence, with no remembrance, no thoughts, no praise, no hope, no celebration.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Pb, I enjoyed that post so much!

Concerning the OT verses about death - do you think there has been a change of any sort since Jesus' death and resurrection?
All the sleep described as death in the OT seems to have ceased for the righteous.
Certainly all of their dead they saw walking around were no longer sleeping.

 

[CS1]

Mathew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This does not appear to be talking about an eternal life of torment, but rather being destroyed.

23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

This also does not say anything about eternal torment.

Luke 10:15 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

This also does not state an eternal life of torment for humans.

Luke 16:23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

This verse, and story, are interesting. The rich man is in hell, but before hell is thrown into the lake of fire. The story takes place while his brothers are still on earth and could be warned to repent and escape. It appears to me that hell is like a waiting room of sorts, until the judgement, after which hell and it's contents are cast into the lake of fire. But still, no statement that he continues in his torment forever. It sure does sound like he is in torment at least up to the time of the judgement though.

nice cherry picking

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

nice cherry picking

Well you're the one who posted the verses!

 

[CS1]

Well you're the one who posted the verses!

NO I posted many of them and a lot more then you used that is cherry picking be honest

 

[CS1]

Well you're the one who posted the verses!

I believe What Jesus said about hell in the word of God.

(Matt 10:28; see also 5:29-30; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 16:23).
Jesus’ teaching about an “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46),

Jesus clearly and taught of a final judgment and the separation of the righteous from the unrighteous. The unrighteous will be condemned to a place of blazing fire and utter darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (See Matt. 13:24-30,36-43, 47-50; 22:1-14; 25:14-46.)

Jesus called this place “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). Hell is not a place where people are tormented by the devil; it is where those who reject God will suffer the same fate as the devil and his demons. It is the place of final judgment.

Jesus is the authority on hell and HE said it is an eternal place of eternal torment.

FYI Jesus did not lie. You have issue take it up with the Authority on hell.

you are not it nor am I Jesus is . and the Word is clear. were done

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Pb, I enjoyed that post so much!

Concerning the OT verses about death - do you think there has been a change of any sort since Jesus' death and resurrection?
All the sleep described as death in the OT seems to have ceased for the righteous.
Certainly all of their dead they saw walking around were no longer sleeping.

If those OT saints in Matthew 27:52,53 were risen to eternal life - then Jesus wouldn't be the firstfruits. . . But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. These two verses - not saying it didn't happen - just saying Matthew is the only one who recorded anything about "the body of the saints which slept arose and appeared unto many", and yet, nobody mentions seeing them walking around???? Just something to ponder.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If those OT saints in Matthew 27:52,53 were risen to eternal life - then Jesus wouldn't be the firstfruits. . . But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. These two verses - not saying it didn't happen - just saying Matthew is the only one who recorded anything about "the body of the saints which slept arose and appeared unto many", and yet, nobody mentions seeing them walking around???? Just something to ponder.

There are some other verses that seem to support it, not just the one in Mathew.
There's what was said to the theif on the cross.
There's also the ones under the altar in Revelation.
And paul said he would prefer to be away from his body and home with the Lord.

I guess it seems to me like His resurrection changed it somehow, but there's not enough (or not enough that's extremely specific) to make me adamant on it...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

NO I posted many of them and a lot more then you used that is cherry picking be honest

So you're mad I randomly picked a few and didn't go copy and list every single one...?

 

[CS1]

So you're mad I randomly picked a few and didn't go copy and list every single one...?

mad ? not at all , just shows you are dishonest and bias . at any rate you have not provided yet again any Biblical refute. only more conjecture . I would not give you the satisfaction of making me mad LOL ahahahah

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

mad ? not at all , just shows you are dishonest and bias . at any rate you have not provided yet again any Biblical refute. only more conjecture . I would not give you the satisfaction of making me mad LOL ahahahah

You think that because I printed a few of the verses but not all of the verses that I am dishonest?
You know, I have to go find it, copy it, paste it, THEN go and get another one and do the same thing?
You can't conceive that maybe after a few, my hand got tired...??
Good grief man!

 

[Ahwatukee]

In my opinion, this isn't a good verse to prove humans are made up of an eternal spirit apart from the Spirit of God.
It talks of the word of God being like a sharp sword that cuts apart, divides or discerns between soul and spirit by revealing the innermost thoughts of a man.

You are correct! And it also demonstrates that mankind is made up of body, soul and spirit, period.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You are correct! And it also demonstrates that mankind is made up of body, soul and spirit, period.

Meh. Not necessarily. The spirit spoken of could conceivably be the Holy Spirit. Or/and it could be saying the word divides or discerns between the soulish of a matter and the spirit of a matter.

At any rate, I didn't think it was among the best verses to try to prove that men are born with an eternal spirit apart from receiving the Eternal Spirit of God in the new birth.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Since the Bible clearly states that in death there is no consciousness

Please provide scripture that states that there is no consciousness after death. Do Eccl.9:5 because I've already demonstrated that the reference to "the dead know nothing" is in reference to the body only and not the spirit.

In regards to annihilation and soul-sleep, I leave you and the others with the event of the rich man and Lazarus as the ultimate proof. Where if you read it in the plain literal sense, it supports consciousness of the spirit after the death of the body and on-going torment for those who die apart from God. You and others interpret it as a parable in order to get rid of the evidence and then you say, "show us proof." If you just read it in its plain literal sense it is more than enough, which is why you and others get rid of it.

The word of God is clear in its meaning of conscious existence, even using other descriptive words in the context of "everlasting, eternal, punishment and torment" all of which infer the idea of existing and on-going.


-

 

[Ahwatukee]

Meh. Not necessarily. The spirit spoken of could conceivably be the Holy Spirit. Or/and it could be saying the word divides or discerns between the soulish of a matter and the spirit of a matter.

At any rate, I didn't think it was among the best verses to try to prove that men are born with an eternal spirit apart from receiving the Eternal Spirit of God in the new birth.

"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. "

Not even close! The scripture is referring to the make up of human beings, body, soul and spirit. In support of this, if you will notice, the word "spirit" is in the lower case, not upper, as it would be if it was speaking in regards to the Holy Spirit. Also, it would be accompanied by words "holy" or "the" as the definite article, as in "the Spirit."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. "

Not even close! The scripture is referring to the make up of human beings, body, soul and spirit. In support of this, if you will notice, the word "spirit" is in the lower case, not upper, as it would be if it was speaking in regards to the Holy Spirit. Also, it would be accompanied by words "holy" or "the" as the definite article, as in "the Spirit."

Not necessarily. The word is the same one used to convey Gods' Spirit, isn't it?

 

[CS1]

"For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. "

Not even close! The scripture is referring to the make up of human beings, body, soul and spirit. In support of this, if you will notice, the word "spirit" is in the lower case, not upper, as it would be if it was speaking in regards to the Holy Spirit. Also, it would be accompanied by words "holy" or "the" as the definite article, as in "the Spirit."

you know Ahwatukee, I wonder why those do not see the context of the Breath of God to make man living being as in Gen 1:26 and 2:7 which says God breathed into his nostril the breath of life and man became living soul. This is the state of man before sin was in him. NO death then after the fall cain kills his brother and in ten 4:10 "the voice of thy brothers blood cries unto me from the ground".

the breath of life is given to everyone to become a living being which even unsaved people has now. The Born again experience is life free from sin and now the flesh will die but we have hope of life eternal or with God forever as it was to be from the beginning . This is why annihilationism make no since . we see added man speaking to God from the ground as we heard Jesus speak about in Luke concerning the "certain Rich man" who also spoke in the state of death.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

you know Ahwatukee, I wonder why those do not see the context of the Breath of God to make man living being as in Gen 1:26 and 2:7 which says God breathed into his nostril the breath of life and man became living soul. This is the state of man before sin was in him. NO death then after the fall cain kills his brother and in ten 4:10 "the voice of thy brothers blood cries unto me from the ground".

the breath of life is given to everyone to become a living being which even unsaved people has now. The Born again experience is life free from sin and now the flesh will die but we have hope of life eternal or with God forever as it was to be from the beginning . This is why annihilationism make no since . we see added man speaking to God from the ground as we heard Jesus speak about in Luke concerning the "certain Rich man" who also spoke in the state of death.

Yep, God breathed into man and man became a living soul - when that breath leaves a man he becomes a dead soul (that breath life is not eternal) . . . Adam died spiritually - he lost that spirit connection with God when he sinned - the only way man can be quickened is through faith in Jesus Christ and then one is reconciled to God and again is body, soul, and spirit.

Yep, we do have hope of life eternal but our hope should not be in dying - death is an enemy - our hope is in the return of Jesus Christ when we shall be resurrected in glorified bodies. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Please provide scripture that states that there is no consciousness after death. Do Eccl.9:5 because I've already demonstrated that the reference to "the dead know nothing" is in reference to the body only and not the spirit.

In regards to annihilation and soul-sleep, I leave you and the others with the event of the rich man and Lazarus as the ultimate proof. Where if you read it in the plain literal sense, it supports consciousness of the spirit after the death of the body and on-going torment for those who die apart from God. You and others interpret it as a parable in order to get rid of the evidence and then you say, "show us proof." If you just read it in its plain literal sense it is more than enough, which is why you and others get rid of it.

The word of God is clear in its meaning of conscious existence, even using other descriptive words in the context of "everlasting, eternal, punishment and torment" all of which infer the idea of existing and on-going. -

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5 - in the grave there's not even any remembrance of God. . . . in the grave who will give God thanks - if we immediately go to heaven wouldn't we be giving God thanks?

What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? Psalm30:9 - When we are turned to dust who will praise God, who will declare his truth.

Shall your lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction? Shall your wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalm 88:11,12 . . . . . Will we declare God in the grave when we are dead - his righteousness will be in the land of forgetfulness, e.g. in the grace, in the dark - the land of forgetfulness

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalm 115:17 - The dead do not praise the LORD, utter silence in the grave.

His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4 - when the breath is gone, we return to dust and in that very day our thoughts perish

For the grave cannot praise you, death can not celebrate you: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. The living, the living, he shall praise you . . . . Isaiah 38:18,19a

So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12 . . . UNTIL Christ returns and calls us out.

So in death there is only silence, with no remembrance, no thoughts, no praise, no hope, no celebration. Yes, but to read the rich man and Lazarus in the literal sense when it is a parable used to teach something causes a skewed perception of death. As for Ecclesiastes - just because you don't want to accept it because you did not explain it away - doesn't change the fact that God said - the dead know nothing . . . . we have no remembrance, our thoughts perish.