The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Stunnedbygrace]

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, HE HAS PUT ETERNITY IN THEIR HEARTS, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

I really, really like to hear your take on verses even though they don't always match with what I see when I read.

I do see the verse differently. Rather than a statement that all men are eternal beings, I see it more like...there is something in men that desires to not die and to live forever.

I'm not crazy about holding the banner of eternal suffering, but I think you are confusing an eternal suffering existence with eternal life.

I don't think I'm confusing them, and I can grasp the concept/idea that when the bible says death, it really means eternal life of suffering. I just don't believe it. I highly, highly doubt that when God says death, eternally dead, second death - that we are to translate it as: eternal life of torture and torment.

I'm not trying to be a difficult or annoying person. I really, really do think mens thoughts and suppositions are being added.

I'll have to search Eccles for the verses where Solomon talks about how we are eternal beings. I never noted them. If I don't find them I'll come back and ask you to list them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

PLENTY has been posted in this thread alone from Scripture that says they will exist eternally.

I honestly haven't seen that. I have seen verses brought up that don't specifically state it, and I've been told that God expects us to make the deduction, but I haven't seen a clear verse that says men are born with eternal life of any sort.

One man recently stated that the we are said to be imperishable all through the bible. But he gave no verses that specifically state that. But I gave verses I think specifically state the opposite - not imperishableness but rather perishableness:

God is not willing that any man perish.
If we believe in the Son we will not perish but will instead have eternal life.

Should we also make perish to mean eternal life of eternal torment? I'm all for looking into the greek to see if it was translated wrong into English, because honestly, that's an extremely important verse.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I honestly haven't seen that. I have seen verses brought up that don't specifically state it, and I've been told that God expects us to make the deduction, but I haven't seen a clear verse that says men are born with eternal life of any sort.

One man recently stated that the we are said to be imperishable all through the bible. But he gave no verses that specifically state that. But I gave verses I think specifically state the opposite - not imperishableness but rather perishableness:

God is not willing that any man perish.
If we believe in the Son we will not perish but will instead have eternal life.

Should we also make perish to mean eternal life of eternal torment? I'm all for looking into the greek to see if it was translated wrong into English, because honestly, that's an extremely important verse.

The way I see it, either it was translated wrong or I just don't understand English.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that everyone will be resurrected to immortality.

I agree. That's what I see too - that all will be resurrected - some to eternal life and some to a second death.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The whole point of Ecclesiastes is the richest, wisest, person that ever lived understood that EVERYTHING Earthly comes to nothing. The righteous, and the wicked alike. BUT, their "software" would stand before their creator, IN SOME TYPE OF HOUSING, to face judgement.

Because software has no mass, like information, it needs hardware to operate. So if the wicked are standing before God in judgement along with the righteous, then they will be on some form of indestructible, eternal hardware as well.
We will be clothed in Christ, the wicked will not.

If you could give the verses you use to arrive at some part of them that's indestructible or else it would be impossible God to resurrect them, I would listen.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And I'm well aware that the " it will be worse for so and so on the day of judgement" needs to be fit into the equation. I cannot fit it in yet.

 

[shrume]

Well... Isn't that what this whole debate is about? PLENTY has been posted in this thread alone from Scripture that says they will exist eternally.

I don't think that's true.

I posted a couple of days ago for instance, that got no response, as to why Jesus told the Pharisees they would face GREATER damnation, specifically referring to hell (Gehenna)

If they are annihilated, how can they face GREATER damnation?

They will face greater damnation before they die permanently.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And I'm well aware that the " it will be worse for so and so on the day of judgement" needs to be fit into the equation. I cannot fit it in yet.

But I do think it would be a worse plight to be one of the unholy trinity and be in torment forever and ever and it would be a better plight to be forever put out of misery by perishing.

 

[PennEd]

I honestly haven't seen that. I have seen verses brought up that don't specifically state it, and I've been told that God expects us to make the deduction, but I haven't seen a clear verse that says men are born with eternal life of any sort.

One man recently stated that the we are said to be imperishable all through the bible. But he gave no verses that specifically state that. But I gave verses I think specifically state the opposite - not imperishableness but rather perishableness:

God is not willing that any man perish.
If we believe in the Son we will not perish but will instead have eternal life.

Should we also make perish to mean eternal life of eternal torment? I'm all for looking into the greek to see if it was translated wrong into English, because honestly, that's an extremely important verse.

No worries sister! I don't believe this is a vital issue at all, and as I've said, I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I don't think that the fact that the lack of specific phrases like, " imperishable spirit", "eternal security", "Rapture", or the classical example "Trinity", means that the concept of said phrases are not present in Scripture.

I also think there are numerous passages that say things like "resurrected to eternal shame" and "where the worm never dies".

Plus, as I've asked several times, how do some face greater damnation if they are annihilated?

 

[PennEd]

I don't think that's true.


They will face greater damnation before they die permanently.

How so?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They will face greater damnation before they die permanently.

I don't think this is sensical or should be kept as any kind of strong point in the debate. It's like...oh, God yelled at you worse before He perished you forever so you are worse off!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Plus, as I've asked several times, how do some face greater damnation if they are annihilated?

The only instance of the actual showing of "a greater damnation" that I have seen is the unholy trinity being "in torment forever and ever" versus the later phrase for others, "this is the second death."

 

[shrume]

How so?

I do not know the specifics of how people will be punished before they are destroyed. The Bible does not say (AFAIK).

But the Bible says the wages of sin is death, not everlasting life.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

don't think that the fact that the lack of specific phrases like, " imperishable spirit", "eternal security", "Rapture", or the classical example "Trinity", means that the concept of said phrases are not present in Scripture.

Agreed. We already do have an example of a seemingly imperishable being - satan. I just think we've somehow assumed we are like him in that respect.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No worries sister! I don't believe this is a vital issue at all, and as I've said, I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I don't think that the fact that the lack of specific phrases like, " imperishable spirit", "eternal security", "Rapture", or the classical example "Trinity", means that the concept of said phrases are not present in Scripture.

I also think there are numerous passages that say things like "resurrected to eternal shame" and "where the worm never dies".

Plus, as I've asked several times, how do some face greater damnation if they are annihilated?

We are completely on the same page as far as seeing the discrepancies. Our difference is that I see both sides as having them and you only see the one side having them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don't believe this is a vital issue at all,

I believe it IS a vital issue. I've heard unbelievers say they do not and cannot believe in a God who is supposedly merciful causing unbelievers to be tortured and tormented for all of eternity. They want no part of a God who is portrayed as being so angry at sin that He causes men to live forever just so He can punish them in all eternity for it. I think they have a valid point, but I think He has been misportrayed.

 

[shrume]

Agreed. We already do have an example of a seemingly imperishable being - satan. I just think we've somehow assumed we are like him in that respect.

Satan will perish.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[MarkWilliams]

I do not know the specifics of how people will be punished before they are destroyed. The Bible does not say (AFAIK).

But the Bible says the wages of sin is death, not everlasting life.

Death is described in many different ways in the Bible, depending on the context. The Bible says we are born dead in our sin, so there it describes being dead while walking around conscience. God told Adam that he would die on the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, but he didn't physically die. That's just to name a couple

 

[shrume]

I believe it IS a vital issue. I've heard unbelievers say they do not and cannot believe in a God who is supposedly merciful causing unbelievers to be tortured and tormented for all of eternity. They want no part of a God who is portrayed as being so angry at sin that He causes men to live forever just so He can punish them in all eternity for it. I think they have a valid point, but I think He has been misportrayed.

The kindness of God leads people to repentance (Rom 2:4).

Not: "The fear of eternal torments drives people to repentance."

 

[shrume]

Death is described in many different ways in the Bible, depending on the context. The Bible says we are born dead in our sin, so there it describes being dead while walking around conscience. God told Adam that he would die on the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, but he didn't physically die. That's just to name a couple

The Bible does not say that Adam "spiritually died". That's reading into the scriptures. "Day" does not always mean on that very day (24 hour period).