Because I don't believe humans are eternal beings. (Unless and until they are born again).
The cultic origins of Annihilationism
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Because I don't believe humans are eternal beings. (Unless and until they are born again).
You guys took it off the table by insisting death doesn't really mean death but instead means eternal life (of eternal torment).
But... you were, with the verse intentionally or not, revealed a flaw in annihilationism. Just saying. lolIn your stance, from what I see, you make room for some being destroyed and others not. What happened to the whole "the penalty for sin is death" chant, from annihilationists? Now we are introducing extinction as a form of mercy?
I think it revealed a flaw on BOTH sides.
One side says death is ceasing to exist at all for everyone across the board.
One side says death is eternal life (albeit a miserable eternal life) across the board for everyone.
The verse I brought up shows a flaw in the dogmatism of BOTH sides.
The wages of sin is death (except for Hitler and Dahmer).
G'nite, SBG
Now fit the verse in question into your belief.
Modern Jews focus primarily on the Talmud. But the Torah does have a few references to the afterlife (which is in Sheol/Hades, the place of departed spirits). It is unfortunate that the KJV translators wrongly used the word "grave".
And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [SHEOL] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. (Gen 37:35 KJB)
All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him. (ESV)
And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave [SHEOL] . (Gen 44:29)
If you also take this one from me and anything happens to him, you will bring my gray hairs down to Sheol in sorrow.'" (HCSB)
Evidently the patriarchs were familiar with the afterlife, and Job knew full well that even after he died he would stand resurrected before God and see Him face to face.
Well since you now have the biblical evidence before you, you will have to change your beliefs.
The Bible shows throughout that souls and spirits are imperishable. That is not exactly the same as calling humans "eternal beings". And there is both a resurrection unto life and a resurrection unto damnation. When the unrighteous dead "stand before God" that means that their imperishable souls and spirits are brought from Hades, given resurrection bodies, and then judged for eternal damnation.
When we focus on something like hell (the lake of fire) we are scared speechless, and many folks become Christian out of that fear. Let's look at the positive side of what is generally believed. Even Catholic scholars agree nobody is currently in hell, that is why they came up with purgatory and paradise. The so called holding places for the departed.
This fearful service to God is never perfected, because it is founded on the wrong spirit. Real faith works entirely different:
Gal. 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
What love will do is perfect the disciple's faith walk with Christ Jesus. You can't serve Christ unless the heavenly Father draws you to it.
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Most people are not to be drawn in this life. Their whole life is a vain show. Most people will have a chance during the second resurrection (Rev. 20:5). That is when God is going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28, 29). This is not a second chance, there will be some resurrected to damnation that rejected the Holy Spirit in this life.
I believe this little season that Satan will be loosed will last a hundred years (see Isa. 65:20). The second gathering for the lake of fire will put an end to Satan, his minions and all the evil people that still reject a loving God. (see Eze. 28:14-19). That sounds like righteous judgment to me.
The judgment period will not present everyone with an equal opportunity at salvation, but everyone will have a chance. If you have seen much or were extremely evil your chances will be diminished in the judgment.
Matt. 11:20-24 "Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."
It is all there for you to figure out.
This fearful service to God is never perfected, because it is founded on the wrong spirit. Real faith works entirely different:
Gal. 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
What love will do is perfect the disciple's faith walk with Christ Jesus. You can't serve Christ unless the heavenly Father draws you to it.
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Most people are not to be drawn in this life. Their whole life is a vain show. Most people will have a chance during the second resurrection (Rev. 20:5). That is when God is going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28, 29). This is not a second chance, there will be some resurrected to damnation that rejected the Holy Spirit in this life.
I believe this little season that Satan will be loosed will last a hundred years (see Isa. 65:20). The second gathering for the lake of fire will put an end to Satan, his minions and all the evil people that still reject a loving God. (see Eze. 28:14-19). That sounds like righteous judgment to me.
The judgment period will not present everyone with an equal opportunity at salvation, but everyone will have a chance. If you have seen much or were extremely evil your chances will be diminished in the judgment.
Matt. 11:20-24 "Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."
It is all there for you to figure out.
No, I didn't misunderstand you. I wanted to see if you thought they were doubly dead. So I asked the question.
I've been having a conversation in here with some who think let the dead bury their own dead means they will live forever.
Your point about paul saying he was alive until the law came is a valid point and thought. It could also be seen though as a broader statement such as in: until the law came, mens sins were not counted against them. As in, if there's no law to break because the law was not yet given, even though men sinned, they cannot be put to death for breaking the law. But, your point is valid and reasonable and if I could find a few more verses to support it, I'd think it was even more valid.
Having a hard time though with adam and eve being made to bring forth of their own kind - because it doesn't seem that the dead could then bring forth the living.
God doesn't wish anyone to perish, and anyone who believes in the Son will not perish but will have eternal life.
This seems to suggest anyone who doesn't believe in the Son will perish and will not have eternal life.
Bedtime here.
As always, great conversation. At least until ben made my head explode. Night, Ben.
You owe me a bottle of Aleve.
As always, great conversation. At least until ben made my head explode.
Night, Ben. You owe me a bottle of Aleve.
You guys took it off the table by insisting death doesn't really mean death but instead means eternal life (of eternal torment).
Lol, well technically they do die (in this life).
No that is what Vines says. No other Lexicon has that. None!
From Thayers on that word:
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
From the BDAG which happens to be the go to when learning Ancient Greek:
ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
to cause or experience destruction
act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.
The most peered recognized Lexicon states the the word means eternal destuction; eternal death. The funny thing is Vines states that the Middle voice is the prerequisite for what you state and he shares but the word in question in Matthew 10:28 is in the active voice.
Here is Vines entry:
<A-1,Verb,622,apollumi>
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luk 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luk 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luk 15:24; of the perishing of food, Joh 6:27; of gold, 1Pe 1:7. So of persons, Mat 2:13, "destroy;" Mat 8:25, "perish;" Mat 22:7; Mat 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Mat 10:28; Luk 13:3,5; Joh 3:16 (Joh 3:15 in some mss.); Joh 10:28; Joh 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1Co 15:18; 2Co 2:15, "are perishing;" 2Co 4:3; 2Th 2:10; Jam 4:12; 2Pe 3:9. Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH.
Vines starts his entry with the standard definition apollumi. And that standard definition agrees with the most peered recognized Lexicon; the BDAG. That the word means destroy utterly; hence eternal destruction as the BDAG puts it.
Me thinks Vines needs to be doing some editing.
My friend Apollumi is a verb not an adjective. Please see Thayer's entry posted above.
I know. The post you responded quoted the BDAG. Please take a look at the post again. As you know it is the go to in any reputable seminary teaching Ancient Greek. You can download a copy for your computer at e-sword or theword.
At $150 it is rather expensive but worth it. I also picked up a hard copy for my book shelf for $99. It is used but in perfect condition. I got that at 2nd & Charles in HBG. Pa. But you can get one anywhere.
If that is not for you at the moment. The LSJ; Liddel, Scott and Jones lexicon is free and easily obtained. And as you know It is also a highly recognized resource when looking at the Ancient Greek. I don't know what you are using now. Can only assume it is from Bible hub or something to that affect. If you do not have esword or theword downloaded on your computer I would highly recommend that you do. It is nice having a complete library that you can build readily available at the press of a button. What is nice about those two and anything you download you don't have to be online to use them. You just have to have power.
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, HE HAS PUT ETERNITY IN THEIR HEARTS, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
I'm not crazy about holding the banner of eternal suffering, but I think you are confusing an eternal suffering existence with eternal life.
Our inner being is software (soul & spirit) housed in hardware (our mortal bodies). The software of our spirit will exist in eternity SOMEWHERE. Solomon knew that human beings were eternal. In writing the very sobering Ecclesiastes, he understood that the existence we experience on Earth, our accomplishments, our enjoyment, even our relationships were temporal.
Since I brought up Ecclesiastes 3, I couldn't resist the Byrds:
That does not mean God made us eternal beings.
Interesting analogy... But software is useless without hardware to run it on.
Based on what?
Have you read Ecc 9? He explains in some detail what happens at death.
The whole point of Ecclesiastes is the richest, wisest, person that ever lived understood that EVERYTHING Earthly comes to nothing. The righteous, and the wicked alike. BUT, their "software" would stand before their creator, IN SOME TYPE OF HOUSING, to face judgement.
Because software has no mass, like information, it needs hardware to operate. So if the wicked are standing before God in judgement along with the righteous, then they will be on some form of indestructible, eternal hardware as well.
We will be clothed in Christ, the wicked will not.
Everyone does.. So apparently everyone dies and everyone lives forever and no one dies a second death.
Agreed. But some will be condemned to the Lake of Fire, and be destroyed.
Why do you think the wicked's hardware will be "indestructible, eternal"?
We will have actual, new, immortal bodies. The wicked will not.
There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that everyone will be resurrected to immortality.
Well... Isn't that what this whole debate is about? PLENTY has been posted in this thread alone from Scripture that says they will exist eternally.
I posted a couple of days ago for instance, that got no response, as to why Jesus told the Pharisees they would face GREATER damnation, specifically referring to hell (Gehenna)
If they are annihilated, how can they face GREATER damnation?