The Lake of Fire-For Members Only

[Deuteronomy]

That is a very good question (no pun intended lol).

I understand what you're saying, and agree, but the verse I remember compared the two, so it's a different situation. Urgh, wish I could find it. But even without it the truth still stands by the other things I pointed out in the bible.

Hi OneFaith, first off, I apologize for using the pronoun "him" in reference to you, now that I know you are a "her" instead (I'm brand new here, so I'll be trying to figure out who everyone is for awhile yet .. JoeFizz pointed out my mistake and I'm thankful that he did).

As far as the "very elect" goes, the only translations that contain that particular word combination (that I'm aware of anyway) are the KJV and the old Geneva Bible, and that only one time in each of those, Matthew 24:24 (wait, the Geneva has it in Mark 13:22 as well). The word "elect" w/o the qualifier, "very", shows up two more times in Matthew 24, v's 22 & 31. Is this what you were looking for BAC?

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Well one faith is a "she"(not fond of the color code name change use to be girl names were pink...)

Hi again Joe, I appreciate you telling me that I'm new here, and I often use "him/her" when I don't know, but in this case, I must have thought that "she" was a "he" for some reason

...it's rather odd to kind of throw God's name about in the mix, one faith often posts things "over my head" but I get the feeling you are being "complex" kind of not "clear" really rather ambiguous was what I was talking about,I have known a few who do that and well it "lead nowhere".

I apologize, I don't mean to be unclear (that would definitely be a waste of everyone's time, including my own ), so I'll try to clear things up if I can. What I was attempting to do was to show what I believe, IOW, that the "very" elect are not a specialized group within the "elect" in general (IOW, that all of the "elect" are also "very elect"), and I was using the KJV's other "very" reference, that of "very God", to try to make my point to her.

Please let me know if that clears things up for you. If not, please let me know and I'll give it another (hopefully better) shot.

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[MarkWilliams]

Correct, only God knows for sure. But I was asked who goes to hell, and whoever are not the very elect will, I was just answering, not saying I know who they are specifically.

So do you agree with Calvin's view of predestination and election, or do you believe a person contributes something to the finished work of Christ for salvation. I believe faith is a gift and nobody would chose to believe and repent unless God caused them to.
Some say that God does His bit and we do our bit, but that doesn't square with what the Bible says.
The bible says that salvation is all of God, from start to finish. The only thing we contribute is a corpse dead in sin.

 

[Deuteronomy]

I'll answer #2 first off his name is the apostle paul(rather odd for you to not post his name..)

Yes, it's true, I should have mentioned both the Apostle/St. Paul (for 2 Corinthians 5/Philippians 1) and St. John (Revelation 6), as well as St. Matthew for the passage about the Lord's Transfiguration.

In a very real sense, of course, the Lord is the 'true' Author of all the passages above, the Bible being made up completely of the "breathed" words of God, yes .. e.g. 2 Timothy 3:16-17? (but I agree that it would have been better to reference what I wrote differently).

and in the passage you are referring to he says "We" not "I" in that he and others were willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord he was talking about "submission", when we let God/Jesus act for us we are "with the Lord" and when we "do not" we are "without the Lord" in that it's a matter of "consciousness" when our "will fuses with God/Jesus's" we can "do so much more" and "rest" in Jesus because we "delegate work" to God/Jesus instead of "struggling" to do so on our own. Understand that apostle paul spoke this in his own understanding that he too was glad to be able to have Jesus instead of being so "weary" in the flesh.

That St. Paul was speaking about himself -and- others in the church at Corinth is undoubted, but I don't believe that changes what this passage is teaching us about in any case (just FYI, the same cannot be said about the Philippians passage above .. where St. Paul makes reference to himself alone).

Yours is a unique interpretation of the 2 Corinthians 5 passage, though it is not the only one of its kind that I've read among those who believe in soul sleep. I continue to contend for the traditional view however, that this passage is referring to the Intermediate State of believers (the time between our death and resurrection), and I believe the context shows this clearly. For reference, here it is:

2 Corinthians 5
1 We know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

I need to go, but I'll try to return tomorrow and finish my thoughts about this.

~Deut

 

[MarkWilliams]

You missed the "super elect" and the "super super elect".

Yes God knows who the elect are, but the elect are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". They are NOT elected for salvation but for perfect and glorification (Rom 8:29,30).

That idea asserts that a person who was born dead in his sin, somehow decides to become holy using his wisdom and intelligence.
The Bible says that we are born spiritually blind and the things of God are foolishness to us. Why would a carnal person decide to lose everything to follow a dead jew from 2000 years ago.
The smartest scientists and most of the great minds in history have mostly been Atheists, because the things of God are foolishness to them. That's why only God can initiate the work of salvation, by causing the sinner to repent and give his life to serving God. The carnal man sees that as stupid, why would you lose everything for someone you can't see.
The unbeliever hates God, they say He must be a evil God if he allows so much evil to exist in the world. Or He has no power, because if He had power He would fix all the problems and He wouldn't have to torture His Son to appease His blood thirst.
There's no way a carnal person would ever come to the Lord, unless the Lord draws him. This is why we believe in election and predestination.

 

[joefizz]

Hi again Joe, I appreciate you telling me that I'm new here, and I often use "him/her" when I don't know, but in this case, I must have thought that "she" was a "he" for some reason

I apologize, I don't mean to be unclear (that would definitely be a waste of everyone's time, including my own ), so I'll try to clear things up if I can. What I was attempting to do was to show what I believe, IOW, that the "very" elect are not a specialized group within the "elect" in general (IOW, that all of the "elect" are also "very elect"), and I was using the KJV's other "very" reference, that of "very God", to try to make my point to her.

Please let me know if that clears things up for you. If not, please let me know and I'll give it another (hopefully better) shot.

Thanks!

~Deut

Thank you I have learned from other members here to be "clear" and more "good grammar" inclined(use to post wall texts and spell things wrong a lot) a fare few times I got somethings I said "misinterpreted" or at the least gave people mixed signals concerning things I've said good to think of the people viewing your post if what is said will "make sense" we get tons of people "bantering","pasting scripture","parroting someone" or even "making long statements that are clear only to the poster but not to others(prideful people that say a lot only to say nothing and basically hear themselves talk) just a friendly tip though I'm not exactly "understandable" myself lol.

 

[OneFaith]

Hi OneFaith, first off, I apologize for using the pronoun "him" in reference to you, now that I know you are a "her" instead (I'm brand new here, so I'll be trying to figure out who everyone is for awhile yet .. JoeFizz pointed out my mistake and I'm thankful that he did).

As far as the "very elect" goes, the only translations that contain that particular word combination (that I'm aware of anyway) are the KJV and the old Geneva Bible, and that only one time in each of those, Matthew 24:24 (wait, the Geneva has it in Mark 13:22 as well). The word "elect" w/o the qualifier, "very", shows up two more times in Matthew 24, v's 22 & 31. Is this what you were looking for BAC?

Thanks!

~Deut

Thank you for your response. You're not the first one to refer to me as 'he'. I don't get it cause my avatar shows a woman washing Christ's feet. Anyways, I know Matthew 24:24 sometimes says the very elect, but I remember thinking that particular time that one said even the elect (which is important because the very elect cannot be deceived, it's the ones who only call themselves christians who do not do deep studies of the word) but that another one had both the elect and the very elect in the same verse. Oh well, I guess I need to find it before I bring it up again.

But like I said, my point still stands with the verse "Many are called but few are chosen." Not everyone who's called to be a Christian will make it heaven- only the Christians who do the Will of the Father- which is to obey the Son, not just believe in Him. Obedience is not optional for salvation. Our obedience does not earn it, but He does not give it to the disobedient.

Anyways, welcome, it's good to have you here.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Correct, only God knows for sure. But I was asked who goes to hell, and whoever are not the very elect will, I was just answering, not saying I know who they are specifically.

As far as I can tell there is no such thing as the very elect. That phrase in Mathew 24:24 simply means elect.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Thank you for your response. You're not the first one to refer to me as 'he'. I don't get it cause my avatar shows a woman washing Christ's feet.

Hi OneFaith, for what it's worth, I couldn't really tell what your avatar was a picture of on my little laptop screen until you told me what it was. Pretty cool, now that I know

Anyways, I know Matthew 24:24 sometimes says the very elect, but I remember thinking that particular time that one said even the elect (which is important because the very elect cannot be deceived, it's the ones who only call themselves christians who do not do deep studies of the word) but that another one had both the elect and the very elect in the same verse. Oh well, I guess I need to find it before I bring it up again.

I checked, and the only translations that use "very elect" are the KJV Bibles (KJV/AV/Jubilee 2000/KJV 2000, etc.) and the old Geneva translation. Every other translation uses "even the elect" (or something close to that), 'including' the New King James Version. If you'd like to see them, here are a bunch of the translations of Matthew 24:24 on the same page.

The only time the phrase, "very elect", is used in the entire Bible occurs in Matthew 24:24 (in the King James) and in Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 in the old Geneva translation. That said, I believe "even the elect" is how "very elect" should actually be understood (IOW, "elect" and "very elect" are talking about the exact same group of people, not a group within a group).

But like I said, my point still stands with the verse "Many are called but few are chosen." Not everyone who's called to be a Christian will make it heaven- only the Christians who do the Will of the Father- which is to obey the Son, not just believe in Him. Obedience is not optional for salvation. Our obedience does not earn it, but He does not give it to the disobedient.

I agree, ours is not a salvation from Hell in the life to come as much as it is a salvation from sin/a sinful lifestyle in the here and now. The other thing that Jesus principally saved us from is the wrath of God .. Romans 5:8-10 (though not going to Hell in the age to come as a result is certainly a nice addition to the Lord's salvation "benefits package" if you will ).

I believe the outward "call" of God is for everyone, but I also believe there is an inward call of God to His elect alone, and that that call will be heeded by all who are His .. e.g. Romans 8:29-30 cf Acts 13:48. This can be understood as the Lord "drawing/giving" the elect to His Son .. see John 6:44. We also know that all who are drawn by the Father and given by Him to His Son, will come to saving faith (and we are also told that none of these will be lost .. John 6:37-40).

Sadly, we are also told (as you just pointed out above), that there are many who believe that they are Christians, but they are not/never have been .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43. Matthew 7:21-23 is perhaps the most frightening passage in the Bible as a result (IMHO anyway).

I also believe that you are correct about obedience, that it is one of the things that results from or accompanies justification/salvation .. e.g. Ephesians 2:10. (we were made wholly new creatures in Christ/made His workmanship for good works .. 'not' because of them).

Since we cannot see the heart like God can (even our own hearts), the 24/7 desire to please and obey Him (and the need to mourn over/seek forgiveness for sin whenever we commit it) are perhaps the greatest signs that we believers are who we claim to be.

Anyways, welcome, it's good to have you here.

Thank you

~Deut

..............We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone ~John Calvin

 

[mailmandan]

Not everyone who's called to be a Christian will make it heaven- only the Christians who do the Will of the Father- which is to obey the Son, not just believe in Him.

If believing/trusting/relying in Christ (for salvation) is insufficient to save (although the Bible teaches otherwise - John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..) then how much obedience must you accomplish and "add as a supplement" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

So what is the will of the Father in regards to receiving eternal life? *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. *Not to be confused with God's Will for Christians AFTER they have been saved:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Obedience is not optional for salvation.

So how much obedience does it take? Are you believing/trusting/relying exclusively in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation OR are you ALSO trusting in your obedience/works to HELP save you?

Our obedience does not earn it, but He does not give it to the disobedient.

This sounds like sugar coated double talk with the end result being salvation by works.

 

[CharliRenee]

Apparently death is not a punishment God must have made a mistake, according to some, when He repeatedly said the wages of sin is death

Oh i see we are on the same page with this topic . Refreshing to see, so many disagree.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Correct, only God knows for sure. But I was asked who goes to hell, and whoever are not the very elect will, I was just answering, not saying I know who they are specifically.

every body goes to hell

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi OneFaith, the KJV adds "very" to qualify God as well (I'll include a little context so everyone knows where we are):

1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.

God is mentioned several times in this passage as you can see, while the "very God" (whoever He is?) is mentioned only once in the entire Bible (just like the "very elect" are only referred to once, in fact). If "very" designates all who are "truly" elect, how was St. Paul using "very" to qualify the word God in this case? And if this is the TRUE God who is finally being referred to here, who's the other Guy that we keep reading about, over and over and over again, in the rest of the Bible?

Thanks!

~Deut

Greetings Deut,

The actual verse says, "may God Himself, the God of peace." Only the KJV inserts the word "very" which is not in the original scripture. The word "autos" is used as a personal pronoun for "Himself." It would help if you would also look at the other major translations in parallel and the interlinear in order to get a better understanding of what is being said.

New International Version
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

New Living Translation
Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.

English Standard Version
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Berean Study Bible
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved, entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

New American Standard Bible
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

King James Bible
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christian Standard Bible
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings to you!

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hi @Ahwatukee, thanks. I used 1 Thess 5:23 to compare and contrast "very God" and "very elect" in an attempt at showing that the "elect" and the "very elect" are the exact same group (IOW, that there is not a "special" group within God's elect known the "very elect" as one of our members believes), just like "God" and "very God" refer to the same Person.

I hope that helps. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

*(I know the KJV and Geneva are the only translations that use "very God" and "very elect", and I made a point of mentioning that fact concerning the "elect"/"very elect" only, because my inclusion of "very God" in this discussion was strictly in reference to the "very elect" .. IOW, "very God" was not the subject we were discussing. If you read through my posts I'm sure you'll see what I mean ).

~Deut