The Lake of Fire-For Members Only
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Many people suffer so much they would rather have death than life.
Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul; Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave? Job 3:20-22
OK well first of all keep in mind that the physical things that happened in the old testament represent the spiritual things of the new testament. For example, a song, a hymn goes like this... "To Canaan's Land I'm on my way, where the soul never dies." It shows how the physical journey from slavery in Egypt to freedom in Canaan (the land flowing with milk and honey) represents our journey from being a slave to sin to living in heaven.
The bible says "Many are called, but few are chosen." This is true of both the physical walk (that happened in the old testament) and the spiritual walk (happening now in the new testament). Do you know how many of the original 600,000+ israélites (that count was only men, there were many, many more if you count women children, at least twice that many) that Moses lead out of Egypt that made it through the wilderness into the promised land of Canann? Two! Joshua and Caleb. They were the only ones that believed God would get them the promised land. For 40 years God lead the people in circles in the wilderness to filter out the ones who were disobedient.
So just as the 600,000+ were called out of Egypt but not chosen, the called (elect) are Christians but the chosen (very elect) are obedient Christians. You see, you can't just talk the talk, you must walk the walk. This is why Christ says many will call Him "Lord" and do many things in His name (CHRISTian) but they won't make it into the promised land of Heaven because they did not do the Will of the Father, they did their own will.
A pig can call himself a duck, paste on feathers, and quack- that does not make it a duck. That is only surface. To truly change within, to be like Christ, we must obey him- not just wear His name and believe in Him.
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"Sleep" is simply a metaphor for death (since the apperance of the dead body in the grave looks like the deceased is resting).
No one sleeps in Heaven. That is why the saints in Heaven are called "witnesses" since witnesses are very much alive while witnessing. Read Hebrews 11 and 12.
And if the Rich Man simply went to sleep, he would not have had a very pitiable conversation in Hades. Calling that a "parable" is imply another excuse to reject the actual teaching within that passage.
And indeed if it is a parable, what spiritual truth does it represent? That people sleep and know nothing after death or THE EXACT OPPOSITE?
No one sleeps in Heaven. That is why the saints in Heaven are called "witnesses" since witnesses are very much alive while witnessing. Read Hebrews 11 and 12.
And if the Rich Man simply went to sleep, he would not have had a very pitiable conversation in Hades. Calling that a "parable" is imply another excuse to reject the actual teaching within that passage.
And indeed if it is a parable, what spiritual truth does it represent? That people sleep and know nothing after death or THE EXACT OPPOSITE?
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Hi OneFaith, the KJV adds "very" to qualify God as well (I'll include a little context so everyone knows where we are):
1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.
God is mentioned several times in this passage as you can see, while the "very God" (whoever He is?) is mentioned only once in the entire Bible (just like the "very elect" are only referred to once, in fact). If "very" designates all who are "truly" elect, how was St. Paul using "very" to qualify the word God in this case? And if this is the TRUE God who is finally being referred to here, who's the other Guy that we keep reading about, over and over and over again, in the rest of the Bible?
Thanks!
~Deut
1 Thessalonians 5
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it.
God is mentioned several times in this passage as you can see, while the "very God" (whoever He is?) is mentioned only once in the entire Bible (just like the "very elect" are only referred to once, in fact). If "very" designates all who are "truly" elect, how was St. Paul using "very" to qualify the word God in this case? And if this is the TRUE God who is finally being referred to here, who's the other Guy that we keep reading about, over and over and over again, in the rest of the Bible?
Thanks!
~Deut
Hi Magenta, the Lord said other things that have led the entirety of the Christian church (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Baptists, Lutheran, etc.) to speak as one voice in holding the sleep of the soul as a heretical doctrine.
Here are some of the things that has led the church to believe that our souls are alive/conscious in the Intermediate State (between our death and our resurrection):
Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
So, if our souls lie interred with our bodies in the ground upon our deaths,
1. Was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)
2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body"?
3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death as well as in life, if we (our souls) are not alive (and conscious) after we die?
4. How could the Apostle think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain" (or that it is "very much better" than living on would be)?
5. Was an exception made again for the souls of the martyrs? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?
Thanks!
~Deut
Here are some of the things that has led the church to believe that our souls are alive/conscious in the Intermediate State (between our death and our resurrection):
Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
So, if our souls lie interred with our bodies in the ground upon our deaths,
1. Was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)
2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body"?
3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death as well as in life, if we (our souls) are not alive (and conscious) after we die?
4. How could the Apostle think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain" (or that it is "very much better" than living on would be)?
5. Was an exception made again for the souls of the martyrs? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?
Thanks!
~Deut
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J
I'll answer #2 first off his name is the apostle paul(rather odd for you to not post his name..) and in the passage you are referring to he says "We" not "I" in that he and others were willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord he was talking about "submission", when we let God/Jesus act for us we are "with the Lord" and when we "do not" we are "without the Lord" in that it's a matter of "consciousness" when our "will fuses with God/Jesus's" we can "do so much more" and "rest" in Jesus because we "delegate work" to God/Jesus instead of "struggling" to do so on our own.
Understand that apostle paul spoke this in his own understanding that he too was glad to be able to have Jesus instead of being so "weary" in the flesh.
Understand that apostle paul spoke this in his own understanding that he too was glad to be able to have Jesus instead of being so "weary" in the flesh.
J
Well one faith is a "she"(not fond of the color code name change use to be girl names were pink...) but it's rather odd to kind of throw God's name about in the mix,one faith often posts things "over my head" but I get the feeling you are being "complex" kind of not "clear" really rather ambiguous was what I was talking about,I have known a few who do that and well it "lead nowhere".
God must have made a mistake, according to some, when He repeatedly said the wages of sin is death That is a very good question (no pun intended lol). When I started wring my answer I remembered verses comparing the elect to the very elect, but not where they were, and I couldn't find them through Google search. This is not the first time, I was asked to read a verse in bible class, and to my dismay it was not in there! They even skipped the number of the verse. For example, it jumped from like 3 to 5 and verse 4 was missing. I was like "This is illegal!" lol. Well the Internet does it too.
So i was left with a decision- do I just delete my answer and not post it? I decided to leave it because for one I know it's in there, and for two "Many are called but few are chosen" is enough to stand on. Besides I had the example from the old testament, and it's true, so I kept it.
I understand what you're saying, and agree, but the verse I remember compared the two, so it's a different situation. Urgh, wish I could find it. But even without it the truth still stands by the other things I pointed out in the bible.
So i was left with a decision- do I just delete my answer and not post it? I decided to leave it because for one I know it's in there, and for two "Many are called but few are chosen" is enough to stand on. Besides I had the example from the old testament, and it's true, so I kept it.
I understand what you're saying, and agree, but the verse I remember compared the two, so it's a different situation. Urgh, wish I could find it. But even without it the truth still stands by the other things I pointed out in the bible.
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