Not By Works
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Matthew 24:13 and Luke 8:13, and Matthew 13:20-21 are all the same context.
Enduring/believing to the end while under persecution.
In Matthew 24;13, especially it's during the great tribulation.
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21
- but endures only for a while.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:9-14
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
The word saved is plainly mentioned, yet you reject the words of Christ.
JPT
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Again, you plainly reject the truth of scripture, in favor of your "doctrine".
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel
Obviously you seem to have trouble recognizing that reconciled to God, is a direct reference to salvation.
Before our faith in Christ, we were alienated from God, being His enemy.
- And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled...
Through faith in Christ, we were reconciled to God.
- And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard
Guess what the hope of the Gospel is?
The salvation of our soul.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
JPT
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You can post what you believe until the cows come home and chickens roost....you can make moot statements like the last thing you stated above and let me tell you something...YOU will NEVER convince me that salvation can be lost....EVER....WHY? Because the bible does not teach a salvation that can be lost or forfeit in context. You prove every time you speak man that you do not understand the simple truth that the word SAVED does not ALWAYS apply unto the salvation of the Spirit/Soul.....so.....you are wasting you time engaging me on this subject...I am fully honest with the word and let it take me where it takes me...I have always been willing to admit error and or change my mind on any subject in the bible....I have studied this every which way to Sunday because I want to know the truth and DO not believe it will jive to stand before the Lord and say...well so and so believed this or this is what the commentary said etc....the bible overwhelmingly teaches the security of the believer based upon the power, promises and words of Christ in Context.....NOT YOU nor anyone else that believes salvation can be lost like a dime on the street and or forfeited like freedom when one goes to jail WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND....the amount of truth that must be rejected, denied, explained away, twisted, embellished, falsified etc. to believe and push that goes beyond ridiculous into a category that I will not name to keep from being censured or banned.
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Hi decon, this is exactly why I stopped reading "passingthroughs" post's. He never responds to your post he just continues his banter about the parable of the sower and falling away. He tries to connect the dots but he cannot - barking up the wrong tree. As long as he can twist Gods word to say what he wants it to say like, "losing your eternal salvation:, then he will keep on barking up the wrong tree, please
God open his spiritual eyes.
God open his spiritual eyes.
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You forgot the THIRD OPTION, really mourning and repenting over your utterly sinful life, genuinely letting HIM control your LIFE, having the Holy Spirit pouring GOD's LOVE directly into our HEARTS, Rom. 5:5, and LETTING HIM birth our HUMAN SPIRIT into ETERNAL LIFE.
Oh my, You take things TOO personal. I read his post too, and in my opinion, he did not imply that
trying twist what is being discussed, claiming that I think Jesus fails...
Can you not just say: c'est la vie. If you are not familiar with that French Expression, is equivalent to
"what will be, will be." If I remember right.
Why are you so HUNG UP on that FALSE STATEMENT, about a so-called Christian converting to ISLAM?
Our Beliefs are HE WAS NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE, he was only a Pretend Christian.
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
2 John 1:1-2 (HCSB)
1 The Elder: To the elect lady and her children: I love all of you in the truth—and not only I, but also all who have come to know the truth—
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.
John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
1 Peter 1:3-5 (NIV)
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,
5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
NO, a truly Born Again Christian, is the ONE who is SHIELDED BY GOD'S POWER. Our Faith NEVER FADES, Our Belief in the TRUTH always Remains With US and WILL BE WITH US FOREVER. We have GOD's LOVE poured into our HEARTS by the HOLY SPIRIT, and it Produces that LOVE and Faith that will NEVER END.
What about those you THINK they lost their SALVATION? They Never Had it in the FIRST PLACE. THEY are the MANY that JESUS DESCRIBES HERE:
Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
They NEVER came through the NARROW GATE, repenting of their utterly sinful life, and thereby LOVINGLY RECEIVING JESUS AS LORD, meaning MASTER.
That is OUR BELIEFS, and you to can Receive HIM too.
COME!
Oh my, You take things TOO personal. I read his post too, and in my opinion, he did not imply that
trying twist what is being discussed, claiming that I think Jesus fails...
Can you not just say: c'est la vie. If you are not familiar with that French Expression, is equivalent to
"what will be, will be." If I remember right.
Why are you so HUNG UP on that FALSE STATEMENT, about a so-called Christian converting to ISLAM?
Our Beliefs are HE WAS NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE, he was only a Pretend Christian.
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
2 John 1:1-2 (HCSB)
1 The Elder: To the elect lady and her children: I love all of you in the truth—and not only I, but also all who have come to know the truth—
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.
John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
1 Peter 1:3-5 (NIV)
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you,
5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
NO, a truly Born Again Christian, is the ONE who is SHIELDED BY GOD'S POWER. Our Faith NEVER FADES, Our Belief in the TRUTH always Remains With US and WILL BE WITH US FOREVER. We have GOD's LOVE poured into our HEARTS by the HOLY SPIRIT, and it Produces that LOVE and Faith that will NEVER END.
What about those you THINK they lost their SALVATION? They Never Had it in the FIRST PLACE. THEY are the MANY that JESUS DESCRIBES HERE:
Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
They NEVER came through the NARROW GATE, repenting of their utterly sinful life, and thereby LOVINGLY RECEIVING JESUS AS LORD, meaning MASTER.
That is OUR BELIEFS, and you to can Receive HIM too.
COME!
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New International Version 1984 1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR , and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
dcon says;
BLAH BLAH BLAH more working for pseudo salvation.....My bible teaches salvation is a present
CURRENT possession.....
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HAS HE
SAVED US <--PAST TENSE
YES..JESUS did become SIN for us....<--Only a deceiver would reject this truth as well....
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the
righteousness of God in Him.
JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he
hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written,
"CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
FOLKS any and all who deny the above truths have proven they are not of GOD....DO NOT
BELIEVE POST 59510..HE DENIES these truths and supplants them with HALF truths and
deceit just like the garden when the serpent removed and then added his own words to the
bible.......
dcon said;
...”JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he
hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....”
THIS IS A CLEAR DECLARATION BY DCON THAT JESUS WAS “CURSED”.
I DECLARE THAT OUR LORD JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PURE,
HOLY AND UNDEFILED. HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE WORD
THAT BECAME FLESH.
SINCE WHEN HAS THE GOSPEL CHANGED? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT JESUS “WAS
CURSED”?
... THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” …...AND YOU WILL BE
SAVED. (rom 10:9)
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the
Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the
Scriptures,
God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence,
“The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember your leaders,
who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their
faith. Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday and today and forever.(heb 13:5-8)
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to
you are spirit and they are life.
Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light
and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who
are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at
drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny
justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks
down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for
THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY and SPURNED THE WORD
OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL JESUS “CURSED".
YOU HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THE FF;
1. FOR REJECTING THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY
2. FOR HAVING SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL
3. FOR CALLING JESUS “CURSED".
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment
for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and
by your words you will be condemned.”
dcon says;
BLAH BLAH BLAH more working for pseudo salvation.....My bible teaches salvation is a present
CURRENT possession.....
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HAS HE
SAVED US <--PAST TENSE
YES..JESUS did become SIN for us....<--Only a deceiver would reject this truth as well....
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the
righteousness of God in Him.
JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he
hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written,
"CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
FOLKS any and all who deny the above truths have proven they are not of GOD....DO NOT
BELIEVE POST 59510..HE DENIES these truths and supplants them with HALF truths and
deceit just like the garden when the serpent removed and then added his own words to the
bible.......
dcon said;
...”JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he
hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....”
THIS IS A CLEAR DECLARATION BY DCON THAT JESUS WAS “CURSED”.
I DECLARE THAT OUR LORD JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PURE,
HOLY AND UNDEFILED. HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE WORD
THAT BECAME FLESH.
SINCE WHEN HAS THE GOSPEL CHANGED? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT JESUS “WAS
CURSED”?
... THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” …...AND YOU WILL BE
SAVED. (rom 10:9)
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the
Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the
Scriptures,
God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence,
“The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember your leaders,
who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their
faith. Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday and today and forever.(heb 13:5-8)
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to
you are spirit and they are life.
Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light
and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who
are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at
drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny
justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks
down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for
THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY and SPURNED THE WORD
OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL JESUS “CURSED".
YOU HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THE FF;
1. FOR REJECTING THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY
2. FOR HAVING SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL
3. FOR CALLING JESUS “CURSED".
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment
for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and
by your words you will be condemned.”
You have posted no truth, only accusations and the denial of the scriptures that I present.
Please just stick to discussing and posting the scriptures, and let's have a civil, fruitful conversation.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-13
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Jesus used these same word for salvation, in the same context, as He taught about the Gospel being preached and those who would be saved.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
It's very simple, the condition Jesus requires for salvation, is to believe.
- lest they should believe and be saved.
Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer meet the required condition for salvation.
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
You guys claim that a person is saved the moment they believe.
So these who believe [and according to you are saved at that moment] for a while, are saved at the moment they believe.
What is their condition after they no longer believe?
You say they are still saved, because the doctrine you teach says once saved always saved.
I disagree.
These who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers.
The bible teaches the promises of salvation and blessing are for believers.
How can someone, still be saved, if they are not believers any longer?
If you have a scripture that people who have believed, then return to unbelieving, are still saved, then please post it for all of us to examine.
JPT
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Ok.
So you are saying that a person who believes for a while, then falls away, was never saved in the first place?
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
JPT
No one has forgotten that.
Is this what you believe?
- So you are saying that a person who believes for a while, then falls away, was never saved in the first place?
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
JPT
NO, YOU ARE DEFINITELY WRONG. WE are the ones who are READY to go HOME, any time HE CHOOSES. We will be the Martyrs, in that cause. Counterfeit Christians will be those who choose to confess Allah in that situation. SO NOW WE UNDERSTAND YOUR LINE OF QUESTIONING WAS HAVING AN ALTERNATIVE MOTIVE. AND IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE BELIEVE.
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Once Truly saved, always saved. Not once saved always saved. Truly is the operative word here. I believe the Bible describes the truly saved as the elect of God and those who profess faith and then fall away were never Truly saved from the beginning.
This is what we are taught at our local Church, I can find Bible references to support this view if required.
This is what we are taught at our local Church, I can find Bible references to support this view if required.
The reason the Christians are being persecuted, is they are Christians; Believers.
- Remember, your doctrine teaches that the moment a person believes, they are saved.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Your philosophy must make up man made terms and definitions, such as "counterfeit Christians" to prop up your man made doctrine.
These who believed for a while, were saved for a while.
JPT
How does a person become saved, according to Jesus?
- lest they should believe and be saved.
These in the first group, had the seed, the message of the Gospel, stolen from the hearts, and never believed.
If they would have believed, then they would have been saved.
- lest they should believe and be saved.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
In the next group, we see some that did in fact believe, and were being persecuted, because they believed, and because they were being persecuted, they departed from Christ, in unbelief: fell away. They no longer believed.
They were no longer believers.
Do you believe these folks who once believed, then no longer believed, are still saved?
JPT