Baptism and holy spirit

[7seasrekeyed]

Face to face is not when we are present with the Lord it is when we see ourselves as God sees us. As sinners in need of salvation and completely unable to save ourselves. We see ourselves as completely dependent upon Gods grace and mercy for our daily needs.

I don't think there exists a face palm meme strong enough for this very very silly interpretation

come on Roger...you are digging deep and coming up with nothing

that is one of the silliest things you have said regarding tongues yet and I am almost embarrassed for you LOL!

if I were to say I want to have a face to face conversation with someone, no one on the planet would interpret that to mean anything but ... well...face to face...present and accounted for...having a coffee or something together

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Scripture gives us specific criteria for the presence of tongues. I only asked if those specifics were present. We are told to try the spirits.

If you cannot demonstrate that the conditions set forth in 1 Cor 14 were met then I suggest that something is out of order. These questions should be asked anytime tongues are said to have been present.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There was no criteria given at Pentecost...it just happened. You sound as if you are saying it can no longer happen that way.
But, yes, paul had to give instruction for a gathering that was going a bit sideways.

 

[notuptome]

There was no criteria given at Pentecost...it just happened. You sound as if you are saying it can no longer happen that way.
But, yes, paul had to give instruction for a gathering that was going a bit sideways.

There appears to be quite a difference between Pentecost and the church in Corinth.

Even so there is little in the way tongues are claimed in the modern church that resembles Pentecost.

Israel has little to no presence in the modern church whereas the apostolic church was a Jewish church before it was a Gentile church.

Salvation to the Jew first then to the Gentile.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I don't think there exists a face palm meme strong enough for this very very silly interpretation

come on Roger...you are digging deep and coming up with nothing

that is one of the silliest things you have said regarding tongues yet and I am almost embarrassed for you LOL!

if I were to say I want to have a face to face conversation with someone, no one on the planet would interpret that to mean anything but ... well...face to face...present and accounted for...having a coffee or something together

You have completely discarded the Jewish heritage of our faith. You act as if the OT did not exist when most of our NT draws from the OT.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

We see through a glass darkly - does not mean "veiled" . . . the Greek word for darkly is ainigma where we get our word "enigma" meaning something difficult to understand; a puzzle. If this context is talking about the completed Bible, i.e. the NT - then why do we all still have questions? Why are some things still difficult to understand? We should be understanding and know even as we are known . . . nope, none of us are mature or completely grown up in Christ. We still have a way to go so I guess even with the completed NT, we still see darkly and not as yet, face to face. We still only know in part so we still nee the "that which is in part" e.g. then that which is in part shall be done away, e.g. prophecies (we prophecy in part), tongues and word of knowledge.

No Jesus is clearly declared to be Messiah in the NT. Nothing cloudy about Jesus is the Redeemer sent from God to redeem man from his sin. No hiding from the Holy Spirit and conviction of sin. Sin is personal and deadly in the NT.

The grace of God seen in Christ is made manifest for all the world to see.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You have completely discarded the Jewish heritage of our faith. You act as if the OT did not exist when most of our NT draws from the OT.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LOL!

that certainly isn't true

however, it is well known you believe tongues was only for the Jews

I might just know my OT better than many actually

so does this mean that Pentecost never happened? come on....most of our NT does not draw from the OT as a defense for your belief that tongues no longer exist...all the letters Paul wrote were not referenced to the OT other than to identify prophecy in the OT had now come to pass...just like Peter did on the day the Holy Spirit descended upon those gathered in the upper room

you are almost writing your own commentary and I am not so sure that you are not in fact!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Even so there is little in the way tongues are claimed in the modern church that resembles Pentecost

There appears to be quite a difference between Pentecost and the church in Corinth.

Even so there is little in the way tongues are claimed in the modern church that resembles Pentecost.

Israel has little to no presence in the modern church whereas the apostolic church was a Jewish church before it was a Gentile church.

Salvation to the Jew first then to the Gentile.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

My point was that you are dismissing any and every instance of the gift of various tongues being given UNLESS AN INTERPRETER IS PRESENT. You are saying that it's unbiblical or doesn't meet your sniff test if someone receives the Spirit and begins speaking with the gift of various tongues. Yet, this is exactly what happened at Pentecost. It has nothing to do with whether various tongues have run amok in a lot of places. It has to do with you saying something definitely isn't authentic because it doesn't meet some parameters you've determined, when those parameters weren't even present at Pentecost. Those parameters were given because of a problem in a gathering in Corinth, to help them become more orderly.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

doesn't meet your sniff test

I laughed out loud

I can see it now. scratch and sniff verses. I'm going with pine. love that smell

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This whole discussion has convinced me to visit a church I was invited to which was described to me as "Pentecostal, operating in all the gifts of the Spirit." I didn't go because I have no gifts to speak of except perhaps that I have pretty firm faith and am able to encourage sometimes when the faith of a friend is taking a hit. But I think I'm going to go and see what it's like. If they are amok I'll not return, and if they teach that I've never prayed/communed in spirit because I haven't received the gift of tongues or any of the other errors being repeated in this thread, I'll not go back - but I want to visit because I don't agree with the obvious false things said in here, from EITHER side.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

it may be of interest to you to know that many people speak in tongues and do not attend a church where that is openly practiced

further, don't allow anyone to try to 'get' you to speak in tongues

and I would not let a gang of people I don't know put their hands on me and pray for me in non English

that's all I'm saying

 

[Cee]

I think you are in error because of an assumption on your part that because Paul said if he prays in a tongue, it is his spirit praying - that this means a tongue is necessary for ever praying in spirit. You have made a leap and an assumption that is not stated.

Some of us have that deep communion with God at times where we don't use any words at ALL and you want to insist words MUST be uttered or we've never prayed in spirit. In fact, if you were to ask us later, we would only be able to say that we knew that to speak with our common mouth in that moment would be like wearing our shoes to walk on holy ground. The only thing we may have done is sigh deeply or groan, but no words escaped our lips, or if they did, they were brief, like, a whispered "holy, holy,holy or: oh! And if you asked us to explain the experience, we really wouldn't quite be able to. One saint of old could only describe it this way: Fire! Fire! Fire! You just CAN'T find words to explain praying in spirit.

I agree that everyone's relationship with God is uniquely beautiful. While also holding in tension that God says draw near to Him and He will draw near to us. And Paul says earnestly desire higher gifts. We also have it's the glory of kings to search out a matter. So I don't want to dismiss the pursuing tension either. I like to consider it a pursuit of being pursued.

 

[Waggles]

This whole discussion has convinced me to visit a church I was invited to which was described to me as "Pentecostal, operating in all the gifts of the Spirit."

Here is a good place to start

http://trffresno.org/

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No Jesus is clearly declared to be Messiah in the NT. Nothing cloudy about Jesus is the Redeemer sent from God to redeem man from his sin. No hiding from the Holy Spirit and conviction of sin. Sin is personal and deadly in the NT.

The grace of God seen in Christ is made manifest for all the world to see.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Okay . . . you see clearly . . . you have NO unanswered questions that are enigmas to you . . . . you are completely mature with the "perfect", e.g. the NT . . . and you see the NT pages face to face. You no longer need a message of knowledge from God to direct and lead your steps - to help you in current circumstances in your life.

Okie dokie then . . . . . .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This whole discussion has convinced me to visit a church I was invited to which was described to me as "Pentecostal, operating in all the gifts of the Spirit." I didn't go because I have no gifts to speak of except perhaps that I have pretty firm faith and am able to encourage sometimes when the faith of a friend is taking a hit. But I think I'm going to go and see what it's like. If they are amok I'll not return, and if they teach that I've never prayed/communed in spirit because I haven't received the gift of tongues or any of the other errors being repeated in this thread, I'll not go back - but I want to visit because I don't agree with the obvious false things said in here, from EITHER side.

SBG . . . I am going to go out on a limb here and I am going to say that I don't think a lot of churches operate the manifestations in a correct manner as stated in 1 Cor. 14:27-32, at least the ones I have visited. That's not to say that the one you have been invited to is in error. It seems that most get emotionally hyped up - being slain in the spirit, dancing in the spirit, barking and so on . . . that does not mean that the tongues they speak are not real but they let "emotions" control the situation and there is nothing but confusion and nothing being done is decent or in order. LOL . . . I sound like I am discouraging you! Please do go -

I don't know about a lot of "false things" being said in here . . . the manifestation of the spirit is for every believer. It is God who energizes the believer to manifest any one of the nine manifestations - not all will manifest the same thing, I) one may speak in tongues and interpret; 2) another may pray for healing for someone, etc. . . . . then again sometimes no one will manifest at all during a church meeting - It is God who energizes.

 

[notuptome]

LOL!

that certainly isn't true

however, it is well known you believe tongues was only for the Jews

I might just know my OT better than many actually

so does this mean that Pentecost never happened? come on....most of our NT does not draw from the OT as a defense for your belief that tongues no longer exist...all the letters Paul wrote were not referenced to the OT other than to identify prophecy in the OT had now come to pass...just like Peter did on the day the Holy Spirit descended upon those gathered in the upper room

you are almost writing your own commentary and I am not so sure that you are not in fact!

Peter cited the OT to explain Pentecost. Jesus quoted and taught OT scriptures in the temple to reveal Himself and the promised Messiah.

Scripture states the tongues are a sign gift and that signs are for the Jews. The bible does not require your approval to be true.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

My point was that you are dismissing any and every instance of the gift of various tongues being given UNLESS AN INTERPRETER IS PRESENT. You are saying that it's unbiblical or doesn't meet your sniff test if someone receives the Spirit and begins speaking with the gift of various tongues. Yet, this is exactly what happened at Pentecost. It has nothing to do with whether various tongues have run amok in a lot of places. It has to do with you saying something definitely isn't authentic because it doesn't meet some parameters you've determined, when those parameters weren't even present at Pentecost. Those parameters were given because of a problem in a gathering in Corinth, to help them become more orderly.

You touch on an interesting matter when you look at tongues in Acts compared to tongues in Corinthians.

Acts 15 gives testimony as to why tongues were evidenced at the conversions of many Gentiles.

Acts 15:6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'll let anyone who wants to or is willing to pray for me, in whatever language they want to pray in, pray for me!

Here is a good place to start

http://trffresno.org/

No thanks there waggles. If you think it's good, considering that you tell men they cannot call Jesus Lord without speaking in tongues, I'm going to stay away from it. No offense.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You touch on an interesting matter when you look at tongues in Acts compared to tongues in Corinthians.

Acts 15 gives testimony as to why tongues were evidenced at the conversions of many Gentiles.

Acts 15:6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You touch on an interesting matter when you look at tongues in Acts compared to tongues in Corinthians.

Acts 15 gives testimony as to why tongues were evidenced at the conversions of many Gentiles.

Acts 15:6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oddly, no mention of translators present there either.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

emotionally hyped up - being slain in the spirit, dancing in the spirit, barking

And you're worried I might STAY if I saw that...???

 

[KelbyofGod]

It seems a lot has gone on in the last few days. I think I caught up on reading the thread but don't exactly know what to comment on. Any post #'s I should specifically check out?


Stunnedbygrace,
I'm glad to hear you are actually planning to check out a group with tongues. They vary widely in practices and beliefs. How much they pray outside of church may make a big difference on how things go IN the church.

I'm not going to say one group is necessarily better than another.... What I do tell people is to pray before going and bring your questions...not questions to hand to man, but honest questions you have for God. In other words go for God, not just to see what man is up to. But in any case I am glad you are at least checking it out in person.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

OOps, just edited the misspeaking of your name Stunned.