Baptism and holy spirit

[peacefulbeliever]

No sis, god did not

All the gifts that god gives manifests the hs, that is what the passage is stating,

He did not manifest the gifts, each gift manifests the HS.

If i speak in tongues and god gets glorified, he Hs is manifested in me, if i share my gift of knowl sge as the HS has gifted me, god is glorified and the spirit is manifested in me,

All i need is one gift to manifest the spirit

Okay so gifts and manifestations are the SAME thing . . . . even though God clearly separates the two.

Right God does not manifest the gifts - EACH believer manifest the gift.

When one speaks in tongues - the gift of holy spirit is manifested . . . . God is THE Holy Spirit and He has given us the GIFT of holy spirit - it is inside us and cannot be seen so has to be manifested.

 

[shrume]

Speaking in tongues and praying in tongues are not identical and interchangeable.

They are referring to the same thing: the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

Paul makes it clear that in 1 Cor 14:14 it is his spirit that should he pray in tongues, not that he does pray in tongues, not the Holy Spirit.

This sentence does not make sense.

When Paul prays with the Spirit he prays with understanding in contrast to praying in an unknown tongue without understanding.

Paul says he does both (1 Cor 14:15).

There is no fruit in praying or speaking without understanding either with the speaker or the hearer.

When a person speaks in tongues, it edifies him (1 Cor 14:4), he is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), he is magnifying God and speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 10:46; 2:11), he is praying in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15). When a person speaks in tongues in public, he must interpret, so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5).

This is another example of sloppy exegesis.

That's pretty ironic, Roger...

1 Cor 14:39 Is an injunction to allow someone who has a different tongue to speak and forbid him not provided there is someone there to interpret for the benefit of the others present that all my benefit from what the speaker says.

1 Cor 14:39 is talking about the manifestation of speaking in tongues.[/QUOTE]

 

[shrume]

Please show scriptural evidence/proof that your interpretation of that is correct. I have never seen scripture that states that.

Are you referring to Christians speaking in tongues at will?

In 1 Cor 14, Paul gives specific instructions on how the manifestations are to be used in the church. He says that if a person speaks in tongues out loud, he must interpret. If he does not plan to interpret, he should remain silent, and pray to himself and to God. He tells people to do all things decently and in order. He gives a scenario of everyone speaking in tongues at once. I'm sure you can determine the scripture references from 1 Cor 14.

If the operation of speaking in tongues was not under the control of the individual Christians, giving instruction on how to do it properly would be an exercise in futility.

Also, there's this:

1 Cor 14:
32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If that is true, then how would you explain the newly converted believers in Corinth that immediately spoke in tongues? They obviously weren't "earnestly seeking" being able to speak in tongues... they simply wanted to be saved and receive the Spirit, as was promised to ALL of us.

It's a shaky thing to be having great communion with God, while He has put someone else on a spiritual fast from His presence, and to think the reason is because you are seeking hard and they aren't. (And you sure won't be helping them in their dryness and seeming darkness but will be actually causing them more distress in it.) Because He is all about working arrogance out of us and replacing it with dependence and humility. So if this is the thoughts of your heart, that you are being blessed because of yourself, sure enough, He will eventually withhold communion for some period of time to cause you to see that you are not the reason of His blessings. There is the verse that says He rewards those who diligently seek Him. But there is also the verse that says, don't ask who will go up to heaven and bring God down to us. They balance each other out in order to bring low what needs to be brought down and to lift what is low that He wishes to bring up. One verse is for lifting the discouraged. The other verse is for lowering the arrogant. Right in the middle in a temperance that walks with understanding of both verses is the safest place to walk.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay so gifts and manifestations are the SAME thing . . . . even though God clearly separates the two.

Right God does not manifest the gifts - EACH believer manifest the gift.

When one speaks in tongues - the gift of holy spirit is manifested . . . . God is THE Holy Spirit and He has given us the GIFT of holy spirit - it is inside us and cannot be seen so has to be manifested.

God did not seperate the two,

God manifests th spirit (makes known) by the gifts the HS gives, no matter what that gift is

And each believer does not manifest te gift, each gift manifest the Power of HS, it is the spirit that is manifest, not the Gift or people

 

[KelbyofGod]

If that is true, then how would you explain the newly converted believers in Corinth that immediately spoke in tongues? They obviously weren't "earnestly seeking" being able to speak in tongues... they simply wanted to be saved and receive the Spirit, as was promised to ALL of us.

I am not saying that speaking in tongues is always difficult to receive. I am not saying it is always easy.

I am saying it's always being offered and it's available to all because all need to worship God in spirit. The bible states that "if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth". Is there any other action we do that is directly stated as being prayer in the spirit?

Cornelius' group received it while listening to the word. Others needed hands laid on them. One group even needed to have apostles from Jerusalem come later hands on them and pray for them to receive the Holy Ghost because something was hindering them.

To try to pigeon-hole the outpouring of the Holy Ghost to fit a pattern that isn't supported by the biblical examples (like it comes instantly at belief) just isn't a wise idea. It CAN come instantly at belief, as evidenced by Cornelius' group, but it CAN also be some unspecified time later, as evidenced by Acts 8 and Acts 19.
Even the apostles had to tarry at Jerusalem until they received it.

Specifically WHEN it comes isn't promised (just like specifically when Jesus comes isn't promised). Jesus comes for all. The Holy Ghost is promised to ALL. But if we want the benefit of Jesus or the benefits of the Holy Ghost praying in us (tongues), then we need to endure to the end, when the promise truly arrives, not give up before we actually receive it.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[notuptome]

They are referring to the same thing: the manifestation of speaking in tongues.


This sentence does not make sense.


Paul says he does both (1 Cor 14:15).


When a person speaks in tongues, it edifies him (1 Cor 14:4), he is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17), he is magnifying God and speaking the wonderful works of God (Acts 10:46; 2:11), he is praying in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15). When a person speaks in tongues in public, he must interpret, so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5).


That's pretty ironic, Roger...


1 Cor 14:39 is talking about the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

LOL You simply will not accept the text as written. You cannot help yourself and must read into the text your unsound doctrine. Praying in tongues is not speaking in tongues. Not a single incident of praying in tongues is listed in scripture.

Paul saying if he prays is not Paul saying that he does pray or that when he prays in tongues. If make the text conditional and Paul neve gives a condition where he would expect to pray in tongues. In fact Paul says that such prayer would be unfruitful.

Another thing there is no interpreting your own tongues implied in the bible. That would open the speaker to all kinds of fraud and deception.

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

This verse teaches that those who prophecy must do so in accord with what the rest of the bible teaches. No new revelation and no private interpretation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am saying it's always being offered and it's available to all because all need to worship God in spirit. The bible states that "if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth". Is there any other action we do that is directly stated as being prayer in the spirit?

I think you are in error because of an assumption on your part that because Paul said if he prays in a tongue, it is his spirit praying - that this means a tongue is necessary for ever praying in spirit. You have made a leap and an assumption that is not stated.

Some of us have that deep communion with God at times where we don't use any words at ALL and you want to insist words MUST be uttered or we've never prayed in spirit. In fact, if you were to ask us later, we would only be able to say that we knew that to speak with our common mouth in that moment would be like wearing our shoes to walk on holy ground. The only thing we may have done is sigh deeply or groan, but no words escaped our lips, or if they did, they were brief, like, a whispered "holy, holy,holy or: oh! And if you asked us to explain the experience, we really wouldn't quite be able to. One saint of old could only describe it this way: Fire! Fire! Fire! You just CAN'T find words to explain praying in spirit.

 

[CS1]

LOL Not in this case.

Paul is not giving a positive affirmation of praying in tongues. It just is not in the text of 1 Cor 14.

While we have examples of converts speaking in tongues we do not ever have an example of anyone praying in tongues.

No private interpretation of scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

wrong

 

[CS1]

I read it again,

And i ask you again why you judge me and claim i do not have the desire or am willing?

Yes EG knows,

Twice you tried to defend yourself, and twice EG was judged.

remember he thinks your not born again until some man immerses you in water, and the baptism of the holy spirit (not anointing) is what gives you those great gifts to boast about.

EG

Okay so gifts and manifestations are the SAME thing . . . . even though God clearly separates the two.

Right God does not manifest the gifts - EACH believer manifest the gift.

When one speaks in tongues - the gift of holy spirit is manifested . . . . God is THE Holy Spirit and He has given us the GIFT of holy spirit - it is inside us and cannot be seen so has to be manifested.

yep amen

 

[shrume]

LOL You simply will not accept the text as written.

Again, ironic coming from you.

You cannot help yourself and must read into the text your unsound doctrine.

Again, ironic coming from you.

Praying in tongues is not speaking in tongues.

The two terms are interchangeable.

Not a single incident of praying in tongues is listed in scripture.

There are several.

Paul saying if he prays is not Paul saying that he does pray or that when he prays in tongues.

Another sentence that does not make sense.

If make the text conditional and Paul neve gives a condition where he would expect to pray in tongues. In fact Paul says that such prayer would be unfruitful.

Praying out loud in the spirit is unfruitful to the church unless the person interprets.

Another thing there is no interpreting your own tongues implied in the bible.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

This verse teaches that those who prophecy must do so in accord with what the rest of the bible teaches.

Please explain how that verse means what you claim it does.

No new revelation and no private interpretation.

God talks to people all the time.

And may I suggest that much of what you claim is your private interpretation. You have claimed that Paul said things he did not, and that he did not say things that he did. You frequently say things that simply do not make sense. When I point that out, you do not explain yourself, but continue to put forth what you believe, and do not offer scripture backing up what you say. You have continually accused me of private interpretation, eisegesis, you have questioned my spirituality and my commitment to Christ, you tell me I "cannot help myself", and more. You continually try to belittle me, as though doing so strengthens your position. It does not.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think you are in error because of an assumption on your part that because Paul said if he prays in a tongue, it is his spirit praying - that this means a tongue is necessary for ever praying in spirit. You have made a leap and an assumption that is not stated.

Some of us have that deep communion with God at times where we don't use any words at ALL and you want to insist words MUST be uttered or we've never prayed in spirit. In fact, if you were to ask us later, we would only be able to say that we knew that to speak with our common mouth in that moment would be like wearing our shoes to walk on holy ground. The only thing we may have done is sigh deeply or groan, but no words escaped our lips, or if they did, they were brief, like, a whispered "holy, holy,holy or: oh! And if you asked us to explain the experience, we really wouldn't quite be able to. One saint of old could only describe it this way: Fire! Fire! Fire! You just CAN'T find words to explain praying in spirit.

I may have just come up with something that could vaguely explain what it is like when I pray in spirit...it's sort of like seeing...a beautiful wild animal has walked up right beside you when you were sitting still and reading and you are surprised and awed and want him to stay so you can gaze at him up close and you just know that you must not even lift a finger to scratch your nose or he will be gone. It's...sort of like that...

 

[CS1]

EG

yep amen

did not judge you made a POINT now you are trying to flip the scrip. As I see it in scripture God gives the gift we use it . It is not judgemewnt to say one has to be willing to be used by God. That is just the truth. I did not say you had to speak in tongues nor do I believe you do have to. But God creates the desire in the heart of the believer to want it and the desire to seek it. Then God gives it. That is not a judement . The idea that I am judging you is misgudied . And you know it is. You just want to be confrontational. So let get back the context of 1cor 12, 13, and 14 concerning Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Which is a wonderful thing

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It's just...unseemly, to insist that you know a man has never prayed in spirit when you are not privy to another mans communion with God. It's...sticking ones nose where one should not dare to stick ones nose.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

As I see it in scripture God gives the gift we use it . It is not judgemewnt to say one has to be willing to be used by God. That is just the truth. I did not say you had to speak in tongues nor do I believe you do have to. But God creates the desire in the heart of the believer to want it and the desire to seek it. Then God gives it.

I think we all agree with this.

 

[shrume]

It's just...unseemly, to insist that you know a man has never prayed in spirit when you are not privy to another mans communion with God. It's...sticking ones nose where one should not dare to stick ones nose.

The question is: what is the Bible talking about when it uses the term "praying in the spirit"?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

did not judge you made a POINT now you are trying to flip the scrip. As I see it in scripture God gives the gift we use it . It is not judgemewnt to say one has to be willing to be used by God. That is just the truth. I did not say you had to speak in tongues nor do I believe you do have to. But God creates the desire in the heart of the believer to want it and the desire to seek it. Then God gives it. That is not a judement . The idea that I am judging you is misgudied . And you know it is. You just want to be confrontational. So let get back the context of 1cor 12, 13, and 14 concerning Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Which is a wonderful thing

see, Now if you said this in the first place. all would have been well.

 

[CS1]

LOL You simply will not accept the text as written. You cannot help yourself and must read into the text your unsound doctrine. Praying in tongues is not speaking in tongues. Not a single incident of praying in tongues is listed in scripture.

Paul saying if he prays is not Paul saying that he does pray or that when he prays in tongues. If make the text conditional and Paul neve gives a condition where he would expect to pray in tongues. In fact Paul says that such prayer would be unfruitful.

Another thing there is no interpreting your own tongues implied in the bible. That would open the speaker to all kinds of fraud and deception.

1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

This verse teaches that those who prophecy must do so in accord with what the rest of the bible teaches. No new revelation and no private interpretation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

wrong read 1cor 12, 13, and 14 . in Chapter 14:13 says " Therefore the person who speaks in another language should pray that he can interpret".

NO you assume it would open to all kinds of fraud , because you do not take the full chapters in context . Did you not read in chapter 14:27-29

" 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.


IN the gift of Tongues and interpretation & prophecy all done must be judge

How? By the word of God . The tongues & prophecy is nothing new but a confrimation of what is already known. If it is not or does not line up with the word of God , they are to BE silent as verse 28 says :

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The question is: what is the Bible talking about when it uses the term "praying in the spirit"?

Well...no man who has experienced the deep communion of praying in spirit walks away not knowing that he has had a deep touch from, and communion with, God. It is not an everyday occurrence for me personally but is more like...the king extending his scepter and allowing me to commune that deeply. Because I had already learned to eat with manners at His table, I was very aware that to try to force this deep communion again because of the great joy I had felt, would be unmannerly. But believe me, I wanted to try to force it again, I just knew not to and knew that it would be wrong to focus avidly on the feeling of pleasure it gave me. I know I am a woman of great appetite (because of my distress the first few times He withheld Himself from my senses), so I held a knife to my throat at the Kings table. I refused the cry of my senses and...put them under, because it is not the purest communion to be giddy in your senses and to crave sensually. The deepest and purest communion is of the spirit and notof the cravings of the senses.

I read where an old saint said that God does not lead some to this understanding on earth and I do not think I agree with it or with the way he puts it. He says something like...God does not call all to as much love while on earth. I rather think that the things He first freely gives us (like tongues for you or that feeling of a sense of His Presence for me) are polluted somewhat by our sensuality and craving and that he takes us through dry times(fasts in spirit) to purify us from the sensual and lead us into more purely spiritual communion. So I think the old saint was seeing some still quite sensual and surmising that God was not going to purify them more.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

see, Now if you said this in the first place. all would have been well.

All that matters is that you both now understand what each other was intending to mean and convey. That's a good thing.