Will you go to Heaven?

[JGIG]

If someone believes they have lost thier salvation, would a OSAS believer tell them:

No, you can't lose something you never had.
Trying to get use to this new format. I will try it again.

If someone believes they have lost their salvation, would a OSAS believer tell them:

1. No, you are mistaken. You must never have had salvation to begin with. You simply had a false assurance of salvation.

2. No, you are mistaken. You can not lose salvation under any condition. You are simply having a false sense of damnation.

3. Something else.

That was weird my response to this post didn't come through - trying this again, lol.

Salvation is not just the gift of the forgiveness of sins, but the gifts of God's Righteousness and New Life in Christ.

And that life is not our life made longer, it is the Life of Christ put within us - eternal life! That is why it cannot be lost and we are completely secure in Christ.

That's why Paul so confidently declares:

3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (from Phil. 1:6)​

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We, in our limited view, cannot see what God may be doing or will do in the life of any believer - wayward or not - but we should trust Him to keep His promises and love well those around us and be faithful to build one another up in who we are in Christ.

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.​

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12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.​

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16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (from 1 Thes. 5)​

-JGIG

 

[Magenta]

I formed my beliefs from Scripture and not from Calvin.

Thank God

 

[Magenta]

It is possible that the person who stops trusting in Christ actually never really did to begin with. That is certainly one of the things that could have occurred.

That is what Scripture attests to in 1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[mailmandan]

It's interesting that you do not agree with John:
"
14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other.

18Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

19This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

24The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 3:14,18-19,24

But I think it's more a matter of you did not know John said this.

Security comes from trusting in Christ. Assurance that you are secure in Christ comes from being a changed person who loves as God loves.

Are you being sarcastic? Who said that I did not agree with John? 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death to life, (demonstrative evidence) because we love each other. I also agree with 1 John 3:18-19.

*1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

In regards to 1 John 3:24 - The one who keeps (Greek word "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) God's commands lives in Him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives is us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us.

*Romans 8:16 - The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

 

[Magenta]

Are you being sarcastic? Who said that I did not agree with John?

He was showing his lack of love for the brethren. He is not saved according to him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You should check it out since what you believe about not losing your salvation comes from Calvin starting in the 16 century or thereabouts. .

Dude you have calvinitis, you need to get out more, and take some pills to get healed of that illness, it has you blind to what people really are saying

calvin did not start eternal security, whoever told you that lied to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And Calvin got it from Augustine, and Augustine got it from the Manichaean gnostics he followed for 9 years.

And this person has gnosticitis,

People need to stop listening t men, and start studying and at the very least, stop listening to people using gnostic/calvanist oenses, no wonder you two can never understand a word people say,

 

[BenFTW]

There is no "great divide", there is simply one group labeling acts of obedience as acts of merit. Attempting to push faith alone regeneration theology to its logical conculsion, antinomianism.

What does scripture say? Under what does sin not have dominion? The one under grace or law?

Romans 6:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The Law is holy and commandment holy, just, and good but has no power to make someone so.

Romans 7:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The Law made nothing perfect, and our sanctification is through God, by His Holy Spirit. As the Apostle Paul says, the Law is good if used lawfully (1 Timothy 1:8-11). It leads men to Christ, it develops the conscience (making it sensitive to right and wrong), but over all, it could never make us perfect and clear our conscience. This is only through the blood shed of Jesus that we are being made perfect and our consciences wiped clean, so that we may be before God boldly.

To suggest I am or anyone in favor of "faith alone regeneration theology" is against the Law, is rather ignorant. If used lawfully it will lead a man to Christ, develop a conscience, and make one appreciate the righteousness of God in comparison to the evil in the world. Yet, having begun in the Spirit are we then perfected in the flesh? No (Galatians 3).

 

[Seedz]

All you have to do is put the two seemingly contradictory passages of scripture side by side and you can see which one can not be true if it makes the other one false. Try it.


The passages interpreted to defend 'once saved always saved' make the passages used to defend 'not once saved always saved' false. But the 'not once saved always saved' passages do not make the 'once saved always saved' passages false. That is how you know which argument is true and which one is not.

This works with many if not all disputable doctrines.

LOL Are you serious?

Is it really that "simple" and blatanly easy to certainly KNOW what is the "true" way of interpreting/believing?

Don't you see that a lot of what one believes ends up being subjective, regardless of the "objectivity" found in the word?

This is why denominations exist, along with the rest of the Christianity movement.

Depending which church you go to, who you ask, how you feel that day, etc, you will find different answers backed by different evidence.

By "disputable" doctrines I am sure you mean everything else "contrary" to what you have been led to believe to this point. The irony is that many people think the way you do. Heck, we are all culpable of it.

 

[Seedz]

That is exactly how on forfeits their salvation: Stop trusting in Christ.



I wish that was the case but 1) the Bible tells us to keep believing, and 2) simple observation shows that people who once believed later changed their mind and went back to unbelief.



It is possible that the person who stops trusting in Christ actually never really did to begin with. That is certainly one of the things that could have occurred.

So you are saying it is extremely likely that we cannot know for sure about our own belief in Christ? Don't you see how complex that is? That the only people that "may" be able to tell are outside observers towards a particular persons life/faith? What does that mean about myself? Am I unworthy of knowing what I actually believe or have experienced?

Is it wrong to ask yourself questions like these?

 

[Seedz]

Romans 2:6-11
"6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. "

Now, I know I can get at least 5 different interpretations out of a passage like this one. (Ironically it mentions works directly affecting your judgement)

What about the ones that say something like there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

I find it difficult to know exactly for sure what is what.

 

[Musicus]

There is no "great divide", there is simply one group labeling acts of obedience as acts of merit.

A group is putting merit in the same boat as obedience. Got that.

Attempting to push faith alone regeneration theology to its logical conculsion, antinomianism.

Faith alone regeneration theology, logically concluded, is antinomian. Got that. (I just have a silly peeve about people sticking 'ism' on words that don't need it)

Are you saying these two ideas are related? Or that they are both of the same group? Or both are antinomian?

 

[Musicus]

Romans 2:6-11
"6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. "

Now, I know I can get at least 5 different interpretations out of a passage like this one. (Ironically it mentions works directly affecting your judgement)

What about the ones that say something like there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus?

I find it difficult to know exactly for sure what is what.

If you do evil, [you are not in Christ], and you get the wrath of God and everything that goes with it. If you do good [you are in Christ] and you get eternal life.

Just because Paul didn't explicitly connect doing good with being in Christ here doesn't mean it's not implied. These verses also mention nothing about love, but we know love is a must, right?

 

[Seedz]

If you do evil, [you are not in Christ], and you get the wrath of God and everything that goes with it. If you do good [you are in Christ] and you get eternal life.

Just because Paul didn't explicitly connect doing good with being in Christ here doesn't mean it's not implied. These verses also mention nothing about love, but we know love is a must, right?

Oh so its your interpretation then? Or is it the holy spirit telling you this? Because there are other passages like Romans 7 that would make this a bit more complex.... Not sure if you have time for such discussion.

 

[Musicus]

Oh so its your interpretation then? Or is it the holy spirit telling you this? Because there are other passages like Romans 7 that would make this a bit more complex.... Not sure if you have time for such discussion.

Sure I have time. I know there's more to it, but that's kinda my point. Paul didn't write everything he (directed or influenced by the Holy Spirit) had to say to everyone. So I found that I need to take this from here, that from there, etc., and put it all together for the whole picture. I do take my learnin' from the Holy Spirit. I also found that scripture always edifies other scripture. If it doesn't seem that way to me sometimes it's always me at fault, not paying attention to the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 7:18, 19 Paul said "For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing." (NIV) "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." (KJV)

It seems a contradiction to 2:9 "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. ", like Paul is condemning himself. Is this what you mean?

 

[mcubed]

As long as I continue to believe and I produce the fruit of the Spirit I have both the security of salvation and the assurance that I really do have it.


Any more questions?

Yes. Is believing a work? What if someone questions Messiah, even for a nano-second? Did they lose their salvation or could the grace of G-d and His sanctifying work kept them saved? If you say G-d does that not prove my point He keeps us saved? Or maybe they were not saved to begin with...

If you have been saved for a while have you "ALWAYS" produced fruit? Is it fruit man judges or G-d?

 

[Ralph-]

The rest of us know you are wrong about Dan "not knowing" Your ignorance is showing.

Then you're saying he doesn't agree with John. Interesting.

At least I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he simply did not know what John said.

 

[UnderGrace]

You should check it out since what you believe about not losing your salvation comes from Calvin starting in the 16 century or thereabouts. .

There was another person here on CC who made this claim over and over again, somehow though that person could never bring forth adequate proof.

This is a bit like deja vu for me.

 

[Ralph-]

Are you being sarcastic? Who said that I did not agree with John? 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death to life, (demonstrative evidence) because we love each other. I also agree with 1 John 3:18-19.

*1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

In regards to 1 John 3:24 - The one who keeps (Greek word "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) God's commands lives in Him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives is us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us.

*Romans 8:16 - The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

You said this:

People who trust in their works/performance as the basis for assurance of receiving eternal life could NEVER have absolute assurance because they could NEVER know for sure if they MEASURED UP and that is the whole deception!

Why did you say this if you knew that the Bible says anybody can know if they have measured up to the standard of saving faith?

 

[Ralph-]

There was another person here on CC who made this claim over and over again, somehow though that person could never bring forth adequate proof.

This is a bit like deja vu for me.

I'm surprised that you of all people don't know more about Calvinism.

Once saved always saved is infiltrating the present day church because of Calvin.