Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[Ralph-]

Just for clatification so that people don't stumble over the word works, please do me a favor and pick the minimum works from the list below that, in your opinion, a person must do to be saved. If you select Other, please explain.

1. Partake of communion
2. Attend Church
3. Visit widows and orphans
4. Feed the poor
5. Not practice sin
6. Grow in faith
7. Other

From your list, these are things that would be works that exhibit justifying faith and constitute faith that is not dead:

3. Visit widows and orphans
4. Feed the poor
5. Not practice sin

I did not include '6. Grow in faith' because that's a general causation of works rather than the works themselves. And we could post lengthy New Testament passages of instruction to the church to explain '7. Other', so I left that out.

 

[Ralph-]

I'm not sure who you're commenting to, but IMO people who so stridently fight against any type of work are those who have become work-phobic from once being enslaved to doctrines that teach people have to do certain things to be justified.

Also those who are not making progress in their growth toward victory over sinful habits. Not necessarily because they want to stay in their sin but because most churches do not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and most denominations simply do not know how to lead people to victory over sin. 'Obedience' (aka, works) is a dreaded word to them, so doctrines that downplay the necessity for obedience/works through Christ win the day.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

From your list, these are things that would be works that exhibit justifying faith and constitute faith that is not dead:

3. Visit widows and orphans
4. Feed the poor
5. Not practice sin

I did not include '6. Grow in faith' because that's a general causation of works rather than the works themselves. And we could post lengthy New Testament passages of instruction to the church to explain '7. Other', so I left that out.

So from what I gather, this means you think a person must visit widows and orphans and feed the poor to be saved. I strongly disagree.

 

[Ralph-]

Baptism does not save us, nor is peter trying to say this, it is another symbol (like the flood) of what does save us, the ressurection of christ.

If you can understand what Peter means when he says "baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21) then you can understand how works save us.

Works do not justify us, they save us. For dead faith (faith with no works attached) can not save.

 

[Ralph-]

So from what I gather, this means you think a person must visit widows and orphans and feed the poor to be saved. I strongly disagree.

I'm saying what James said. Those things constitute the works of living faith. Faith that does not have those things attached James calls 'dead' faith--the faith that can not save.

 

[shrume]

If you can understand what Peter means when he says "baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21) then you can understand how works save us.

Works do not justify us, they save us. For dead faith (faith with no works attached) can not save.

Eph 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Ralph-]

Eph 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The literal power of salvation is not in the works that you must have to be saved. The literal power of salvation is in God's grace.

 

[Ralph-]

Grain is used to represent the spiritual seed(one) Christ

Actually, I think the more accurate understanding is the grain offerings represent the offering of our physical bodies to God in worship and service.

 

[shrume]

The literal power of salvation is not in the works that you must have to be saved. The literal power of salvation is in God's grace.

There are NO works we must have to be saved except for the "work" of having faith in Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

There are NO works we must have to be saved except for the "work" of having faith in Christ.

You do not have to have works for JUSTIFICATION. But you will definitely need to have works to be saved on the day Christ returns. Dead faith can not save you. Do not be deceived, church.

 

[garee]

From your list, these are things that would be works that exhibit justifying faith and constitute faith that is not dead:

3. Visit widows and orphans
4. Feed the poor
5. Not practice sin

Justifying whose faith? The faith of God who works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure as a imputed righteousness?.

Natural unconverted man is reckoned as having "no faith". Not little none. its how the word faith is used through the scriptures never in the sense of natural man the forward generation of Adam

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

Little faith like when Christ spoke to the disciples recognizes a person has faith that does come from hearing God called the hearing of faith our first love by which we can hear God and not the imaginations of our own heart .

Faith must be reckoned to the person of Faith our faithful Creator) not the froward nation as in none . There is nothing we can do outwardly that would prove beyond a shadow of doubt something inwardly . Man looks on the outside, God looks upon the heart of the matter and is ablr to judge the intent of our hearts .

No such thing as a sign gift to prove a person has the Spirit of Christ . The Jews required a sign in that way they stumbled over the cross.

He alone is the just and justifier of our new faith, whether it be little or much .He cause the increase . We must decrease and walk by faith, the unseen eternal of God …..not looking to the temporal things seen of men.

 

[shrume]

You do not have to have works for JUSTIFICATION. But you will definitely need to have works to be saved on the day Christ returns. Dead faith can not save you. Do not be deceived, church.

Eph 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Ralph-]

Eph 2:
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes, living faith, not dead faith. Dead faith can not save you. You are saved through a living faith that works. Even Paul the author of the famous 'works vs. faith' doctrine said that:

"The only thing that counts (towards justification) is faith expressing itself through love. "-Galatians 5:6

No where did he say that dead faith saves a person. But the church has understood his message to mean faith can be 'alone' (absent of works) and you'll still be saved when Jesus comes back. Of course this erroneous message is comforting to a church that does not know victory over sin as a new creation in Christ nor how to attain it.

 

[shrume]

Yes, living faith, not dead faith. Dead faith can not save you. You are saved through a living faith that works. Even Paul the author of the famous 'works vs. faith' doctrine said that:

"The only thing that counts (towards justification) is faith expressing itself through love. "-Galatians 5:6

No where did he say that dead faith saves a person. But the church has understood his message to mean faith can be 'alone' (absent of works) and you'll still be saved when Jesus comes back. Of course this erroneous message is comforting to a church that does not know victory over sin as a new creation in Christ nor how to attain it.

Even if every single work a Christian does is burned up, he will still be saved.

1 Cor 3:
11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm saying what James said. Those things constitute the works of living faith. Faith that does not have those things attached James calls 'dead' faith--the faith that can not save.

Actually James is not a law book. He is teaching principles of faith. It is love and mercy to visit widows and orphans; that can be shown in other ways. It's a loving heart that matters, not following a list of works.

 

[Ralph-]

No such thing as a sign gift to prove a person has the Spirit of Christ .

We see that Peter and his group knew the Cornelius and his household had been accepted by God in salvation by the fact they spoke in tongues:

45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God."-Acts 10:45-46

When you hear the genuine gift of tongues in a person you know for a fact they have the Holy Spirit in salvation. It's just that not every believer is going to have that gift. I wish we all did, but God distributes the gifts as he sees fit. Do all speak in tongues? The answer to the rhetorical question is, 'no'. Can they? Only if God distributes it to you as he determines to do that.

In regard to the body it's a minor gift anyway, folks. It's more important for the body that you speak words that edify the whole, not just you.

 

[Ralph-]

Even if every single work a Christian does is burned up, he will still be saved.

1 Cor 3:
11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yes, if every single work of ministry you ever performed produced nothing but people composed of hay, wood, or stubble in the earthly building of God who won't survive the coming judgment then, yes, you will still be saved despite your lack of successful work.

The context is work performed in planting and watering the field of God and building the temple of believers, not your personal works of moral obedience. This has zero to do with you being able to live in complete disobedience and still being saved when Jesus comes back. You will be rejected by Christ if you do that. Dead faith is not saving faith. James said so.

 

[shrume]

When you hear the genuine gift of tongues in a person you know for a fact they have the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Absolutely true, Ralph.

It's just that not every believer is going to have that gift.

Tongues is not a gift. It is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY man (Christian) (1 Cor 12:7).

I wish we all did, but God distributes the gifts as he sees fit.

Yes, God distributes gifts as He sees fit. But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every Christian, and God would like every Christian to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). Speaking in tongues is called praying in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15), and we are encouraged to always be praying in the spirit (Eph 1:18).

Do all speak in tongues? The answer to the rhetorical question is, 'no'. Can they? Only if God distributes it to you as he determines to do that.

The overall context of 1 Cor 12-14 is meetings in the church. In meetings, not everyone does everything.

In regard to the body it's a minor gift anyway, folks.

Tongues is not a gift, nor is it "minor".

It's more important for the body that you speak words that edify the whole, not just you.

In the church, that's true.

So as not to derail this thread, I won't respond on this topic any more here.

 

[mailmandan]

I have said it many times, we are saved, ie born again, regenerated, through faith, by obeying the Gospel message, not by doing good works, or by keeping the law of Moses.

We will receive the salvation of our soul on the Day of Judgement, when the Lord Himself says these words -
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34
JPT

Sugar coated double speak.

 

[shrume]

Yes, if every single work of ministry you ever performed produced nothing but people composed of hay, wood, or stubble in the earthly building of God who won't survive the coming judgment then, yes, you will still be saved despite your lack of successful work.

The context is work performed in planting and watering the field of God and building the temple of believers, not your personal works of moral obedience. This has zero to do with you being able to live in complete disobedience and still being saved when Jesus comes back. You will be rejected by Christ if you do that. Dead faith is not saving faith. James said so.

This section can be applied personally, and not just "work of ministry".

If I witness to someone and they choose not to believe, why is it that "I" suffer loss? If I have many good works, but every single person I witness to decides not to believe, why am I saved "as one escaping through the flame"?