Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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What they were taught or what they believe will not be considerations judgement daye if they refused to study to search for the truth, or if they refused to accept truth delivered by His servants- truth that is backed up by scripture. If one searches for the truth with all their heart will find it. But those who have not ears to hear will never accept it.
No, you don't get it and I see that you ignored what I shared with you in post #285 and post #308. All the letters are addressed to believers, yet that does not mean that everyone being discussed in the letters are genuine believers. Do you really believe that Galatians 5:19-21 is describing believers? You also fail to see the contrast in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. Also see 1 John 3:7-10.
Again, non-believers are those who "live according to the flesh." In contrast, we read in Romans 8:8 - and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Why don't you describe to me what YOU believe it means to be a BELIEVER.
Again, non-believers are those who "live according to the flesh." In contrast, we read in Romans 8:8 - and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Why don't you describe to me what YOU believe it means to be a BELIEVER.
Paul is addressing the Church at Galatia, but he is describing unbelievers in Galatians 5:19-21 and also in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (refers to them as the unrighteous who practice such sins) IN CONTRAST to believers in 1 Corinthians 6:11. We also see this CONTRAST in 1 John 3:7-10. *Be sure to compare Galatians 5:19-21 (practice such things) with 1 John 3:9 NASB - No one who is born of God practices sin..
If you live a life after the flesh, dominated by the flesh, totally surrendered to the flesh, and under the authority of the flesh, you are not saved, you are lost.
Living in the present tense means that one is not just behaving for a moment under the "spell" of the old nature but that this person is behaving continually, habitually having their life dominated and directed by the evil nature, the flesh. It's called practicing sin (1 John 3:9).
According to the flesh (kata sarx) conveys the idea of one placing themselves down and therefore under the dominion or control of the evil flesh nature. If a professing (not possessing) "Christian" habitually lives in sin and shows no concern for repentance, forgiveness, worship, or fellowship with other believers, he proves that he claims the name of Christ in vain.
Please read these verses carefully.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Once again I see that you have completely IGNORED what I shared with you in regards to Romans 2:6-8.
Let's try it again: Patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
So that is a DESCRIPTION of those who will receive eternal life. Now here is HOW one receives eternal life (I often hear works-salvationists confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture).
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
*You still have not answered my question: *Please explain to me what YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel.
*What do YOU believe it means to be saved by grace through FAITH?
If you live a life after the flesh, dominated by the flesh, totally surrendered to the flesh, and under the authority of the flesh, you are not saved, you are lost.
Living in the present tense means that one is not just behaving for a moment under the "spell" of the old nature but that this person is behaving continually, habitually having their life dominated and directed by the evil nature, the flesh. It's called practicing sin (1 John 3:9).
According to the flesh (kata sarx) conveys the idea of one placing themselves down and therefore under the dominion or control of the evil flesh nature. If a professing (not possessing) "Christian" habitually lives in sin and shows no concern for repentance, forgiveness, worship, or fellowship with other believers, he proves that he claims the name of Christ in vain.
Please read these verses carefully.
Romans 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Once again I see that you have completely IGNORED what I shared with you in regards to Romans 2:6-8.
Let's try it again: Patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
So that is a DESCRIPTION of those who will receive eternal life. Now here is HOW one receives eternal life (I often hear works-salvationists confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture).
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
*You still have not answered my question: *Please explain to me what YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel.
*What do YOU believe it means to be saved by grace through FAITH?
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The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Greek particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away? It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians (who profess to be believers) mixed in with a group of believers. Judas Iscariot looked like the real deal to the rest of the apostles, yet Jesus said he is a devil!
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.
Once again, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we read - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).
That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Greek particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away? It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians (who profess to be believers) mixed in with a group of believers. Judas Iscariot looked like the real deal to the rest of the apostles, yet Jesus said he is a devil!
It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.
Once again, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we read - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).
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Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
It seems you haven’t mentioned the condition by which a person is saved presently, who was saved in the past.
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you
unless you believed in vain.
Our believing, and the resulting salvation in the past, was in vain, if we don’t “hold fast”, which is to continue to believe presently.
Temporary believing results in temporary salvation.
Believe is the condition for salvation.
Those who believe are saved.
- The promise of salvation is to those who believe.
Jesus explained this condition for salvation-
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is theword of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13
- lest they should believe and be saved.
Believe = Saved
- who believe for a while
Believe for a while = Saved for a while
Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are promised to have their part in the lake of fire.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
JPT
Not even close.
Paul is warning these Gentile Christians about practicing the works of the flesh, and how to go about living there lives so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Galatians 5
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
- these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Please just read the words of this warning:
- of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Only a born again Christian who has the Holy Spirit, can walk in the Spirit, so that they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
JPT
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I didn't understand the first paragraph but I think it challenges the 'once saved always saved' doctrine that is so popular. I'll admit I never really bought into it either. Teaching that someone is eternally saved by merely reciting the sinners prayer then going on as before dosn't ring true, it seems too easy and bears no fruit. Is that the point?
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Paul doesn't address unbelievers, he made that clear.
- For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
He also made it clear about associating with brothers who are immoral.
- I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
- Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world,
- But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-12
JPT
Not even close. Christians do stumble at times, but they do not practice works of the flesh - (willful, habitual lifestyle, premeditated without goal or effort to stop). In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Paul said practice such things in Galatians 5:21. But according to you, those who are born of God practice sin and lose their salvation, in contradiction to 1 John 3:9. Should I believe you or John?
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY SIMPLE QUESTIONS?
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY SIMPLE QUESTIONS?
E
Can you interpret?
There is no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST.
who are these people, People who do not walk according to the flesh, but the spirit.
It is not saying we become in christ by walking, It says e walk BECAUSE we are in christ.
why do you want to take credit yourself?
There is no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST.
who are these people, People who do not walk according to the flesh, but the spirit.
It is not saying we become in christ by walking, It says e walk BECAUSE we are in christ.
why do you want to take credit yourself?
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E
I agree, Teaching someone is eternally saved just because they quoted a prayer does not ring true
Yet that is not OSAS. or what it stand for. Don;t let these anti OSAS people distort what the truth is, because they reject the idea, and have no desire to find out what it really means.
OSAS says those who have truly repented, Have truely come to their knees (the tax collector) in humility, and called out on God to save them (be it in a prayer or in thought) is saved and given ETERNAL life.
Yet that is not OSAS. or what it stand for. Don;t let these anti OSAS people distort what the truth is, because they reject the idea, and have no desire to find out what it really means.
OSAS says those who have truly repented, Have truely come to their knees (the tax collector) in humility, and called out on God to save them (be it in a prayer or in thought) is saved and given ETERNAL life.
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E
Not even close. Christians do stumble at times, but they do not practice works of the flesh - (willful, habitual lifestyle, premeditated without goal or effort to stop). In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Paul said practice such things in Galatians 5:21. But according to you, those who are born of God practice sin and lose their salvation, in contradiction to 1 John 3:9. Should I believe you or John?
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY SIMPLE QUESTIONS?
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER MY SIMPLE QUESTIONS?
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Named a brother or actually is a brother? According to 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Galatians 5:19-21, these people are described as "unrighteous" who "practice" such sins. They are not believers who lost their salvation, but unbelievers who never received it.
In regards to the case of the man who had his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, this man truly stumbled and was in need of repentance in regards to this matter. How long did he stumble? We don't know for sure, yet Paul did not say the man lost his salvation and needed to get saved all over again. He was to receive discipline (delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh) yet (that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus). How long did this man stumble? We don't know for sure, yet some may argue that he did repent in 2 Corinthians chapter 2. Temporarily stumbling in the present does not necessarily mean continuous action in the future.
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Paul addresses the Corinthian believers who were behaving as men of the flesh/carnal. There was envy, strife and divisions among them and they were still on milk and not ready for solid food. That would not be considered practicing sin and nothing is mentioned about them losing their salvation either and needing to repent of their envy, strife and divisions in order to get saved all over again. Instead, Paul refers to them as "babes in Christ." They needed to mature.
PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE IT MEANS TO "BELIEVE THE GOSPEL."
If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR EXACT ANSWER?
In regards to the case of the man who had his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, this man truly stumbled and was in need of repentance in regards to this matter. How long did he stumble? We don't know for sure, yet Paul did not say the man lost his salvation and needed to get saved all over again. He was to receive discipline (delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh) yet (that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus). How long did this man stumble? We don't know for sure, yet some may argue that he did repent in 2 Corinthians chapter 2. Temporarily stumbling in the present does not necessarily mean continuous action in the future.
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Paul addresses the Corinthian believers who were behaving as men of the flesh/carnal. There was envy, strife and divisions among them and they were still on milk and not ready for solid food. That would not be considered practicing sin and nothing is mentioned about them losing their salvation either and needing to repent of their envy, strife and divisions in order to get saved all over again. Instead, Paul refers to them as "babes in Christ." They needed to mature.
PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE IT MEANS TO "BELIEVE THE GOSPEL."
If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR EXACT ANSWER?
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