Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[notuptome]

I wasn't debating OSAS. I was debating whether all this debate is actually producing anything other than animosity.

When Gods word is declared it always produces exactly what God intends. Gods word never returns to Him void.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

Unless you continue to believe to the end, you initial believing was done in vain.

You just made that up to fit your false beliefs.

Here is what the verse says: "...unless ye have believed in vain..."

Here is what you said: "Unless you continue to believe to the end"

They are NOT identical. Here is what the verse actually means:

Strong's Concordance
eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Short Definition: without purpose, in vain
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing.

HELPS Word-studies
1500 eikḗ – properly, without cause (ground), without basis and therefore not to be taken seriously (considered valid). This adverb suggests, "What goes to no purpose . . . ".

In other words, "unless your faith was fake (not to be taken seriously)".

If there was no genuine saving faith to begin with, then that person was not even saved. But you twisted that to mean something else altogether.

 

[notuptome]

Romans 8:
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 9:1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Strong word of testimony from Paul. Get your thinking straight and stop resisting God in His work of sanctification in your life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Questions for the debate teams

1. How many times have you repeated a pro or con OSAS argument here (at CC not just this thread) over the last 6 months?
2. How many people have those arguments convinced to change their stand on the issue?

I can think of one, and who knows how many others, can you probe no one has changed just by comming in and not responding. No

So what is your beef, you do not like it, go away, no one is forcing you to read thheae debates

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wasn't debating OSAS. I was debating whether all this debate is actually producing anything other than animosity.

What do you expect, look at the wars in the NT between works and grace, do you expect any difference today?

The debate will always cause animosity, because you have two different gospels being preached, that in and of itself will be cause anger, because if you disagree with one, in essense, your claiming they are not saved, and they take offense, and that goes for both sides

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Original question: Why do some of us keep debating OSAS till we puke? !! LOL!

I think it is an important subject and I care deeply about it because:

I want believers to have security in Christ and have assurance of salvation. Belief in OSAS is one of the greatest reasons for insecurity and deception because (according to this view) salvation is based on an event in the past (conversion) and thus this event can be called into question if the person does not live correctly. Thus if a person is not doing enough good works, a typical OSAS believer will say - "That person was never saved in the first place".

In contrast to OSAS, I believe my salvation is based on my belief in Christ right now. If I am believing right now, I know that I am saved.

See, and for others it is just the opposite,

God wants us to be secure in him based on his promise, not based on how well we progress to maturity, or how great we are at stopping sin, and this is the essense of eternal security, or as some call it osas, or perseverance, (aply called because the saint is not bound to keep himself saved by his works, but looks continually to christ as his power, )

Saying on can lose salvation, that breeds insecurity and deception,

Deception because it says we can keep ourselves saved

Insecurity because you are bound to continue to do what is required to maintain salvation, fail to keep this standard, and your salvation is lost, this is insecurity

Now, licentiousness (the third gospel) says we are saved by a prayer even though we do not have faith, it is used as a get out of jail free card, and the people never work for god, but are hearers only (they may go to church and do some things, but they have no changed life and continue in sin, proving they have never seen or known God, yet you can not put these people in the OSAS group, because OSAS demands true saving faith, not mere belief

 

[tourist]

Questions for the debate teams

1. How many times have you repeated a pro or con OSAS argument here (at CC not just this thread) over the last 6 months?
2. How many people have those arguments convinced to change their stand on the issue?

I have not seen a single change of perception or opinion by another member. Same as true for Not By Works thread. Just a bunch of bickering and posturing. Interesting thread when started over 2 years ago but now it is boring and a complete waste of time to follow or write a post in.

 

[mailmandan]

No.

I am saying the the born again, Spirit filled Christian has a choice.

• To live according to the flesh
• To live according to the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Are you sure that it's born again, Spirit filled Christians who live according to the flesh? Paul is making a contrast between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are those who "live according to the flesh." In contrast, we read in Romans 8:8 - and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Actually that is what Paul says.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Those who PRACTICE such things (list of sins in) Galatians 5:19-21, which is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS. *Notice in 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin, because His because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. *So much for born again, Spirit filled Christians living according to the flesh/practicing sin and losing their salvation.
  
  

  9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

  *Notice in verse 9 that the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the kingdom of God, which is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS. *You also left out VERSE 11 - And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
  
  

  To the Ephesians, he says -
  
  3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7
  
  

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
  • Therefore do not be partakers with them.

  • 
    
  • Nothing there either about born again, Spirit filled Christians losing their salvation. The "sons of disobedience" is not descriptive of born again, Spirit filled Christians.
  • 
    

  • Who will receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement.

    BELIEVERS, not unbelievers.
  • 
    

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    
    God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

    I see that you ignored what I shared with you in post #285. Once again, if one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it's very important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
  • 
    So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
  • 
    *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
    
    Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
    *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
    
    What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
  • 
    
    
    
    
    

 

[mailmandan]

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.

Unless you continue to believe to the end, you initial believing was done in vain.

JPT

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

What do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Oh yay.. another OSAS thread..

 

[preston39]

Like some other new age religion positions, this thinking came about after the 1960's. I can find to discusionor a bassisforthe thinking before that era.

I wasn't debating OSAS. I was debating whether all this debate is actually producing anything other than animosity.

R....,

When we are witnessing for Christ...we may not see an immediate effect.

Make no mistake about it the new age religion group want us to quit....how much easier than that.

As long as we are correct with G-d's word...that is what we must do.

 

[RickyZ]

When Gods word is declared it always produces exactly what God intends. Gods word never returns to Him void.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are very right. Paul even said whether Christ is preached in truth or error, praise God He is still preached!

BUT

God does also warn against long, fruitless, bickering debates. And if there's one debate that meets that definition it's osas.

So, where does one stop and the other begin? At what point does a debate go from preaching to fruitless?

 

[garee]

I think most OSAS are concerned about they or their loved ones losing one's salvation over committing too many "avon" or "cheit" sins.

Let me explain:

In Judaism, all sins are referred to as "avera". There are three types of avera:

1. Pesha-deliberate sin committed in deliberate defiance of God.

2. Avon-sin of lust or uncontrollable desire. Avon sins are committed knowingly, but not done to defy God. 99% of the trials of this life for all Christians, arguably, is the struggle against commiting avon sins. Compare alcohol and drug addiction as an analogy.

3. Cheit-unintentional sin committed in ignorance.

Of the three, I would dare to say one could see a person losing their salvation over Pesha sin, and this type is what you are implying by the sentiment "sin all they want", but I don't think you can lose salvation for Avon sin and especially not Cheit sin. I think Christ locked down these latter two. If not, we're walking through a minefield, one that will inevitably blow us up.

God does not define sin in different degrees and categories like that of Catholicism (venial and mortal). All sin, as in anything that is not of the faith that comes from hearing God as he works in us to both will and do his good pleasure is sin, in respect to the whole wage, eternal..... separation never to rise to new spirit life.

If God would take into account even taking one bite of the forbidden fruit, who could stand before His Holy presence and receive mercy and grace?.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in "one point", he is guilty of all.


Psalm 130 King James Version (KJV) Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O Lord. Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications."If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities", O Lord, who shall stand?But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
.

 

[garee]

You are very right. Paul even said whether Christ is preached in truth or error, praise God He is still preached!

BUT

God does also warn against long, fruitless, bickering debates. And if there's one debate that meets that definition it's osas.

So, where does one stop and the other begin? At what point does a debate go from preaching to fruitless?

Why not once saved always saved ? Rather than once lost always lost ? What is a person being saved of if not eternal damnation ...those who never rise to new spirit life do not receive it ?

It would seem we can trust him to pay the full wage as the better thing that accompanies salvation .

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[SpoonJuly]

I think most OSAS are concerned about they or their loved ones losing one's salvation over committing too many "avon" or "cheit" sins.

Let me explain:

In Judaism, all sins are referred to as "avera". There are three types of avera:

1. Pesha-deliberate sin committed in deliberate defiance of God.

2. Avon-sin of lust or uncontrollable desire. Avon sins are committed knowingly, but not done to defy God. 99% of the trials of this life for all Christians, arguably, is the struggle against commiting avon sins. Compare alcohol and drug addiction as an analogy.

3. Cheit-unintentional sin committed in ignorance.

Of the three, I would dare to say one could see a person losing their salvation over Pesha sin, and this type is what you are implying by the sentiment "sin all they want", but I don't think you can lose salvation for Avon sin and especially not Cheit sin. I think Christ locked down these latter two. If not, we're walking through a minefield, one that will inevitably blow us up.

NO, you miss the point totally. Those you refer to as OSAS do not believe salvation can ever be lost or given back. Eternal means eternal. Everlasting means everlasting. Once a son always a son.
And any one who says that those who believe in OSAS believe and do live any way they wish ( live after the flesh) are liars.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Are you sure that it's born again, Spirit filled Christians who live according to the flesh? Paul is making a contrast between believers and non-believers.

Oh, ok.

I got it now.

You believe Paul is telling unbelievers to walk in the Spirit, so they won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Last time I checked, this is a letter to the Church at Galatia.


Where would a person address a letter to "unbelievers"? LOL.




JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

Those who PRACTICE such things (list of sins in) Galatians 5:19-21, which is descriptive of UNBELIEVERS.

Please show me the verse in Galatians that teaches Paul is addressing unbelievers, and not the Church at Galatia.


Please read this verse carefully.


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


It's up to the spirit filled believer, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit.



Again, here is who will receive eternal life.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8




JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

You just made that up to fit your false beliefs.

Here is what the verse says: "...unless ye have believed in vain..."

Here is what you said: "Unless you continue to believe to the end"

They are NOT identical. Here is what the verse actually means:

Strong's Concordance
eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Short Definition: without purpose, in vain
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing.

HELPS Word-studies
1500 eikḗ – properly, without cause (ground), without basis and therefore not to be taken seriously (considered valid). This adverb suggests, "What goes to no purpose . . . ".

In other words, "unless your faith was fake (not to be taken seriously)".

If there was no genuine saving faith to begin with, then that person was not even saved. But you twisted that to mean something else altogether.

Here let me help you.

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

 

[justpassinthrough]

So now you’re saying that there born again, Spirit filled Christians who will live according to the flesh, die and end up in hell?

Yes, you got it.


JPT

 

[joefizz]

To save souls from hell, if possible. OSAS believe they can sin all they want and still go to heaven, but you must obey God in order to go to heaven. I will never give up trying to save them with truth- just like Noah tried right up until they entered the ark.

Actually it all "depends" on who believes what,and "how" God's word is "taught".
Some teach that you need only to "go to church" to be "saved",or that being "water baptized" "saves" with people only "claiming" Jesus not "accepting him",I was "taught"....
"You are either saved or you're not saved","You can't live like the devil and be saved","being saved is a knowing thing"-My cousin the pastor
Every church and denomination can have a different teaching of "salvation" but if doesn't teach actually,humbly,and sincerely "accepting Jesus" then it is an "incomplete" doctrine/belief system.