GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[Endoscopy]

yes, same way Zechariah and his wife can be said to have walked blamelessly, without contradicting that 'all have sinned' and 'all we like sheep have gone astray'

are we not liars if we say we have no sin? ((1 John 1:8))
but has He not atoned for us, so that we are blameless in Him? ((Colossians 1:22))

no need to accuse the scripture of designed deception, God intending us to presume the word "law" means "totally not law"

I agree. Too many try to say that the law is not in place. Jesus however says that the law is in place until heaven and earth disappear. We admit this when we say we sin. Sin is breaking the law. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That removes the penalty of the law for those accepting Jesus. Woe to those who reject Jesus. They will be judged by God with the His law.

 

[PS]

Thought of the day:
Sin condemns the whole person, the same as leukaemia condemns the whole body. Both kill, but the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all our iniquities for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Rom 10:4). Those who do not believe or accept the gift of eternal life remain under God’s eternal law that condemns the sinner to eternal death. No escape is possible, for the law is the law and transgressors will experience the laws condemnation.

 

[graceNpeace]

I agree. Too many try to say that the law is not in place. Jesus however says that the law is in place until heaven and earth disappear. We admit this when we say we sin. Sin is breaking the law. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That removes the penalty of the law for those accepting Jesus. Woe to those who reject Jesus. They will be judged by God with the His law.

You need to go and read the first half of Paul's epistle to the Romans...
Gentiles were never under the Law in the first place because they were never party to the Sinaitic covenant.
This is an inescapable fact!
Christ never shed His blood and died that monstrous death to impose the Law given on Mount Sinai onto us as New Covenant believers either.

All through history people never subject to the Sinaitic covenant and therefore the Law have been judged at the judgement seat of Christ - and found guilty with subsequent eternal damnation.
This includes those ancestors of the Israelites who died prior to Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai.
However, by accepting what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross, by grace through faith, we are saved - nil else!

The Law (as given to Moses on Mount Sinai) was never mine to obey before I was saved, and it is not mine to obey now that I am saved!
There are, however, plenty of ethical commands given to the New covenant believer, some very similar to those found in the Law, but that most emphatically does not mean that the Law (as given to Moses) is binding on me in the slightest.

And, in the context of this thread, it explicitly means that Sabbath observance is NOT required by the New covenant believer, despite the furious, and misguided attempts by the OP (now banned BTW), to pervert the plain meaning of Col 2:14-17, since there is absolutely no instruction to New covenant believers to observe the Sabbath.
We do, however, find explicit instruction with respect to the context and meaning of the other nine of the so-called Ten commandments as being applicable to New covenant believers!

 

[posthuman]

worship God in the spirit[/B], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Fleshy traditions and doctrines of men)

Revising the Bible with what one wants the words to be, instead of what the Word actually is, doesn't work in this case either.

Suppose the Spirit meant to inspire Paul to write 'human traditions and doctrines of men' instead of flesh, but somehow God failed and the wrong thing got put down in scripture, as is suggested.

Then Paul is saying, he has more reason to have confidence in evil human imaginations than those other people. And as first examples of the wicked human traditions he lists circumcision in accordance with God's commandments and being a son of Jacob through Benjamin.

Yeah.
No.

See what confusion a person sows when they make it their business to change God's Word to make it fit their private doctrines?

"flesh" means flesh and "the Law" means the Law.

 

[gb9]

Revising the Bible with what one wants the words to be, instead of what the Word actually is, doesn't work in this case either.

Suppose the Spirit meant to inspire Paul to write 'human traditions and commandments of men' instead of flesh, but somehow God failed and the wrong thing got put down in scripture, as is suggested.

Then Paul is saying, He has more reason to have confidence in evil human imaginations than those other people. And as first examples of the wicked human traditions he lists circumcision in accordance with God's commandments and being a son of Jacob through Benjamin.

Yeah.
No.

See what confusion a person sows when they make it their business to change God's Word to make it fit their private doctrines?

"flesh" means flesh and "the Law" means the Law.

studyman may have taken his ball ( or conspiracy theories ) and went home.......

 

[Endoscopy]

You need to go and read the first half of Paul's epistle to the Romans...
Gentiles were never under the Law in the first place because they were never party to the Sinaitic covenant.
This is an inescapable fact!
Christ never shed His blood and died that monstrous death to impose the Law given on Mount Sinai onto us as New Covenant believers either.

All through history people never subject to the Sinaitic covenant and therefore the Law have been judged at the judgement seat of Christ - and found guilty with subsequent eternal damnation.
This includes those ancestors of the Israelites who died prior to Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai.
However, by accepting what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross, by grace through faith, we are saved - nil else!

The Law (as given to Moses on Mount Sinai) was never mine to obey before I was saved, and it is not mine to obey now that I am saved!
There are, however, plenty of ethical commands given to the New covenant believer, some very similar to those found in the Law, but that most emphatically does not mean that the Law (as given to Moses) is binding on me in the slightest.

And, in the context of this thread, it explicitly means that Sabbath observance is NOT required by the New covenant believer, despite the furious, and misguided attempts by the OP (now banned BTW), to pervert the plain meaning of Col 2:14-17, since there is absolutely no instruction to New covenant believers to observe the Sabbath.
We do, however, find explicit instruction with respect to the context and meaning of the other nine of the so-called Ten commandments as being applicable to New covenant believers!

I go with what Jesus said about the law!! Keep in mind the law applies to everyone. When we sin we are breaking the law We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That removes the penalty of the law from us. Those who reject Jesus will be judged by God according to the law.

Matthew 5:17 to 20 NIV

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the law.
In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
All 613 Commandments in the Old Testament Law of Moses


Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

[Studyman]

=lightbearer;3587643]

Let's take a look at Philippians.
Show me where it mentions anything in regards to justification. Paul's mentioning of a confidence of the flesh is in respect to accomplishments outside of GOD's; Christ's working in and through our hearts. He even mention's his birth right means nothing to further our understanding.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
(Php 3:4-7 KJV)

Touching the righteousness of the Law blameless. The righteousness of the law is obeying the law which would include but not limited to offering up sacrifices when we sin. Thereby making us blameless.

[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

I just can't understand how folks can ignore the Biblical Truth that the Pharisees WERE NOT following God's Laws. EVERY WORD Jesus used to describe them proves this to be true. Paul knew this, Peter knew this. The Prophets warned over and over about a "Priesthood" that taught "visions of their own mind".

How can man ignore Paul's own description of himself.

Gal. 1:[13] For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

How is it that now Paul wasn't following "Religious traditions of his fathers", but is following God's Laws like Zechariahs?

"As touching the Law, a Pharisee". How many times must Jesus expose them before we Believe Him? He said specifically of the Pharisees, the Jews religion.

Matt. 15:[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Not God LB.

They taught "LAW" just not God's Laws.

3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition

Was this not the "Traditions of the fathers" Paul was so zealous for? "We have a Law, and by OUR Law He should die". What Law of God condemned Jesus, or Stephen?

So Paul is explaining that He was a "Good Catholic" so to speak. Walking in all the church tradition the Pharisees taught as "law", Blameless.

How, after all Paul and Jesus said about the Pharisees, can man teach He was following God's Laws, "Blameless"? I just don't understand how man can ignore so much of God's Word. And why? To try and create the impression that the Pharisees obeyed God and it didn't help them?


This is confusion LB my brother. Either the Pharisees were teaching and following God's Laws or they were teaching and following "Commandments of Men"?

And didn't the Pharisees also have their version of the Levitical Priesthood? Not the true Priesthood, or they would have known Jesus like Zechariahs did. But their "Law".

And in the Priesthood how are men made righteous, or "justified"? By faith? or by sacrificial "works"?

Does the Law say "If you sin, don't covet your neighbors stuff" and you are made righteous (Sins taken away)? Does it say "if you sin, Love your neighbor as yourself" and your sins are removed (Making you righteous), NO LB, the "Law" says if you sin, take a goat to the Levite Priest for justification, to remove your sin so one can be righteousness.

[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Mainstream preaching that there is no difference between the "Law of Works" (Priesthood sacrificial "works" for the remission of sins) and the "Law of Faith" (Love the Lord with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself) is a popular teaching but false just the same.

The teaching that Paul is telling us He was "Blameless" as to the Laws of God is an error as well.

The Preaching that the Pharisees were trying to be "righteous" by following the "Letter of the Law" which would include Loving God and Loving their neighbor as their self is also a falsehood. Had they strived to Love God and "keep His Commandments" like Abraham and Zechariahs, Caleb, and the other "righteous" examples of the Bible they would have known Jesus because He would have "manifest Himself to them" as He promised.

John 14:[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

All this is for nothing unless we receive Christ (the word; the law) into our hearts. Obeying gets us nothing. It has to be who we are. It has to come from our inner most being; the heart.

Yes, we have to "Obey" from the heart. What is the First and Greatest Commandment that we are to Obey? "Love the Lord your God with all your hearts and soul".

Did the Pharisees obey this Law? Before his conversion, did Paul obey this Law? No, they were not following the Letter of God's Law as "many" who come in Christ's name preach. To preach that they did is denying the Christ.

I think you are are mistaken on this one my friend, IMO.

 

[posthuman]

How can man ignore Paul's own description of himself

Good question!

Philippians 3:6
as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

A person would have to either totally ignore or change the text!

 

[gb9]

studyman may have taken his ball ( or conspiracy theories ) and went home.......

studyman came back. my apologizes.

 

[posthuman]

The Mainstream preaching that there is no difference between the "Law of Works" (Priesthood sacrificial "works" for the remission of sins) and the "Law of Faith" (Love the Lord with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself) is a popular teaching but false just the same

Gotta disagree here.

I find it far more 'mainstream' to think you can break up the Torah arbitrarily into different pieces. People do this all the time as some kind of justification to contradict the grace of God, and try to force things like tithing, ritual sabbath restrictions, and dietary laws onto Gentile believers.

An illustration :

Deuteronomy 22:1-3
If you see your fellow Israelite's ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to its owner. If they do not live near you or if you do not know who owns it, take it home with you and keep it until they come looking for it. Then give it back. Do the same if you find their donkey or cloak or anything else they have lost. Do not ignore it.

'works' law or 'faith' law?
It's telling the Jew under the Law to act ((works)) But it's to act in a way that shows love ((faith??))

A person can keep this law without faith, and without love,and be 'blameless' as far as the Law is concerned, because they did what it said to do, but still be evil in their heart.

the Law of Christ however says, love one another as He loved us. Without needing specific instructions on what to do with a lost animal I find, if I act in faith I know not to ignore it, and I know to take care of it until it can be reunited with its master. That's the difference between faith and works, not priesthood and codified morality. Love doesn't need a letter of law.

 

[posthuman]

Works says, righteousness is in your hands.

Faith says, righteousness is in your heart.

 

[posthuman]

Works says, righteousness is in your hands.

Faith says, righteousness is in your heart.

If it were in my hands I wouldn't need Jesus. I could do it myself, with just willpower.
But it's in my heart, and who can change their own heart? We need Christ to redeem and renew us.

Therefore not by human desire, will or effort, but by God who shows mercy. And no one can boast of anything but Christ.

 

[Deade]

Originally Posted by graceNpeace: And, in the context of this thread, it explicitly means that Sabbath observance is NOT required by the New covenant believer, despite the furious, and misguided attempts by the OP (now banned BTW), to pervert the plain meaning of Col 2:14-17, since there is absolutely no instruction to New covenant believers to observe the Sabbath.
We do, however, find explicit instruction with respect to the context and meaning of the other nine of the so-called Ten commandments as being applicable to New covenant believers!

We are all under grace and not the law, Some of us prefer to keep the fourth commandment, why does that bother you so much? I never impose my beliefs on another unless they are trying to congregate with me.

 

[Blik]

No. They Sought it not by the Faith but by works of the Law. The Faith of Christ is the Love for and Faith in and of GOD, and the Love of our Fellow man. Without this we can keep all the Book of the Law and the Decalogue and not be saved because our hearts are not right.

No they were following the letter of the Law and not the heart of it; LOVE. GOD is LOVE and through Christ as HE is so are we in this Word. This is the foundation of our Faith. The Faith of Christ. Through this we establish the Law. For the LAW depends on LOVE.

Only if their hearts were right. Because their hearts were not right they did not recognize he whom they were seeking. Nor were they truly following that which Moses shared. Worse yet as you proclaim and history teaches they added to it.
No; Paul converted from the Letter of the Law to the heart of it; LOVE through the unity given to him to Christ. For he was dead nevertheless he lived yet not him but Christ liveth in him and the life he then lived he lived by the Faith of Christ.

This gift is available to us all. For the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the Word; the book of the Law) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the Word; the book of the Law) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ; the Book of the Law) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;(Rom 10:6-8 KJV)

For Christ (the word; the Book of the Law in our hearts and mouths) is the end of the (letter of the ) law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Rom 10:4 KJV)

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law (the Letter). For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (Having no Faith; no heart transformation)
(Rom 9:31-32 KJV)

Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; For it is HE that works in us to both will and do HIS good pleasure. For we are the Temple of the MOST HIGH GOD; the Body of Christ HIS Church. For which a man shall leave father and mother and cleave; and they two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery but I speak of Christ and His Church.
(2Co 3:3-5 KJV) Amen!

All the truths you give us about doing without love and faith can be given for faith and love without doing.

 

[lightbearer]

Let's take a look at Philippians.
Show me where it mentions anything in regards to justification. Paul's mentioning of a confidence of the flesh is in respect to accomplishments outside of GOD's; Christ's working in and through our hearts. He even mention's his birth right means nothing to further our understanding.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
(Php 3:4-7 KJV)

Touching the righteousness of the Law blameless. The righteousness of the law is obeying the law which would include but not limited to offering up sacrifices when we sin. Thereby making us blameless.

[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

I just can't understand how folks can ignore the Biblical Truth that the Pharisees WERE NOT following God's Laws. EVERY WORD Jesus used to describe them proves this to be true. Paul knew this, Peter knew this. The Prophets warned over and over about a "Priesthood" that taught "visions of their own mind".

Sure the Pharisees taught things that were not all together from Scripture but that is not what Paul in Philippians is speaking of. The post you responded to proves that. It brings out the difference in what is acceptable and what is not. Our works without the Faith of Christ; GOD not doething the work; And our works through the Faith of Christ, GOD working in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure; HIS Spirit, Christ in you the hope of glory.

By the way, "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."(Mat 23:1-3 KJV)

The problem was not what they were teaching; unless it contradicted the Word of GOD. The problem was a large percentage of them were hypocrites.

How can man ignore Paul's own description of himself.

Gal. 1:[13] For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

How is it that now Paul wasn't following "Religious traditions of his fathers", but is following God's Laws like Zechariahs?

"As touching the Law, a Pharisee". How many times must Jesus expose them before we Believe Him? He said specifically of the Pharisees, the Jews religion.

Your premise is not the theme of of Galatians either. When I have more time (GOD willing) I will go through that letter also and post it.

Matt. 15:[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Not God LB.

They taught "LAW" just not God's Laws.

3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition

That is chapter 15. It is not a baseline. He is speaking to those individuals that approached him with unfounded accusations. In Chapter 23 as seen above he is speaking to different individuals and approaches the issue from a different angle. Context my friend. We can't just assume or assert things that are not there.

I am out of time.
Have a nice day!

 

[gb9]

We are all under grace and not the law, Some of us prefer to keep the fourth commandment, why does that bother you so much? I never impose my beliefs on another unless they are trying to congregate with me.

keep the Sabbath, keep the feasts that ancient Israel kept, heck, keep the new moon fest every month. just don't start telling others that they have to, or that they are going to hell if they do not.

keep the things that you want, just recognize that Christians were never told they have to keep them.

 

[beta]

keep the Sabbath, keep the feasts that ancient Israel kept, heck, keep the new moon fest every month. just don't start telling others that they have to, or that they are going to hell if they do not.

keep the things that you want, just recognize that Christians were never told they have to keep them.

People should realise God does not have a separate law for Israel and christians....that could only be if they are NOT JOINED TOGETHER AS ONE PEOPLE OF GOD. Israel has God's law...PAGANs do NOT !
So where do you stand ? think about it . see Ex 12 and Isah 56.

Btw, nobody is now COMMANDED to keep the letter of the law...we are in a period of GRACE and free to keep and observe what you will....but it shows God how you feel about HIS WILL, do you agree with Him or not ...by your own free will He will see your heart's desire if it be for Him or against Him.

 

[gb9]

People should realise God does not have a separate law for Israel and christians....that could only be if they are NOT JOINED TOGETHER AS ONE PEOPLE OF GOD. Israel has God's law...PAGANs do NOT !
So where do you stand ? think about it . see Ex 12 and Isah 56.

Btw, nobody is now COMMANDED to keep the letter of the law...we are in a period of GRACE and free to keep and observe what you will....but it shows God how you feel about HIS WILL, do you agree with Him or not ...by your own free will He will see your heart's desire if it be for Him or against Him.

yes, there is a different law for ancient jews and modern Christians. there is no such things as a " renewed covenant ", there is a new covenant .

an eye for an eye, your eye shall not pity them, you shall not spare them. turn the other cheek, bless those who curse you, pray for those who spitefully use you.

if you think that is the same, well, you could not be more wrong.

 

[Endoscopy]

People should realise God does not have a separate law for Israel and christians....that could only be if they are NOT JOINED TOGETHER AS ONE PEOPLE OF GOD. Israel has God's law...PAGANs do NOT !
So where do you stand ? think about it . see Ex 12 and Isah 56.

Btw, nobody is now COMMANDED to keep the letter of the law...we are in a period of GRACE and free to keep and observe what you will....but it shows God how you feel about HIS WILL, do you agree with Him or not ...by your own free will He will see your heart's desire if it be for Him or against Him.

Jesus stated that the law is in place until heaven and earth disappear. That includes all mankind. We admit this when we say we sin. Sin is breaking the law. The penalty for breaking the law is death. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Those who reject Jesus will be judged by God under His law as written in the Torah in the Bible!

 

[beta]

yes, there is a different law for ancient jews and modern Christians. there is no such things as a " renewed covenant ", there is a new covenant .

an eye for an eye, your eye shall not pity them, you shall not spare them. turn the other cheek, bless those who curse you, pray for those who spitefully use you.

if you think that is the same, well, you could not be more wrong.

What has changed in the NC is the way we now keep God's laws/Commandments. They are still to be observed...only in a better way as Jesus teaches in the NT....He shows (and so should we) mercy, compassion, forgiveness etc etc instead of wading in fists flying. Grace and Pardon gives us time to change/mend our ways but the Commandments still hold good...we are to love God and neighbour in the way Jesus now explains to us. He did not wipe out the law/Commandments only changed to ways they are to be observed. That is the difference in the law from old to new !Mat 5v17.

I see from your post that we actually agree...so what is the problem ?