Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63

KJV is also not accurate here, as far as i can tell.



[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1437 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Ean[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἐὰν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]If[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]25 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]agapate[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀγαπᾶτέ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you love[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PSA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]me[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]με,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]me,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1785 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]entolas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐντολὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]commandments[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1699 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]emas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐμὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]my[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-AF1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5083 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tērēsete[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τηρήσετε.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you will keep.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-FIA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


isn't it interesting how having a small thing wrong can put something largely out of balance?
Again, it is the interpretation that is important. One interpretation is "you will" keep my commands, which almost sounds like a forcing situation. I do not believe that God would force anyone to be righteous or wicked, therefore when gracers say, we are saved and God preserves us through some kind of forcible action on His part, I do not believe that.

The second interpretation would be: Out of love for God, we will keep his commands, and this is probably the kind of thoughts that you are familiar with. Not by force, does he lead us to eternal life, but out of love, we make faith-filled choices that are in line with His commands and eternal life is given.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,954
13,615
113
Your unbelief or lack of understand doesn't make the Faith of God void.

This man walked away from His Salvation because he placed something before God. The Word which became Flesh, that gave Moses and Abraham HIS LAWS didn't instruct us to "sell everything we have and give to some random poor people.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Had the man not placed his possessions above God, had the man realized that his very existence, and the existence of his wealth was God's to begin with, he would have said, as Abraham did when instructed by this same God to leave his family or to sacrifice his son, "Yes LORD, as you wish,

He had his wealth, others have their time, others have their traditions, others have their friends and family. Paul explains it best.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD(The Word which became Flesh) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Matt. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Same God, Same message. All that's left to do now is believe enough to comply.
why was the man sad if he had no intention of parting with his earthly possessions?

if in his possessions were where his heart lay, and he wasn't going to be parted with them . . ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,954
13,615
113
Again, it is the interpretation that is important. One interpretation is "you will" keep my commands, which almost sounds like a forcing situation. I do not believe that God would force anyone to be righteous or wicked, therefore when gracers say, we are saved and God preserves us through some kind of forcible action on His part, I do not believe that.

do you really believe the Shepherd doesn't lift a finger to save a lost sheep?


caught in brambles, stupid, struggling, not understanding how it keeps making its situation worse with all its flailing, you think the shepherd that stands there and says "free yourself" as though the sheep has to prove itself worthy -- you think that's the "good" shepherd? one that just sits and watches his own flock strangle itself?
or the shepherd that doesn't even go out to look for a lost sheep? maybe calls from the edge of the sheep pen, but that's it -- ain't gonna force no lost sheep to find it's way back. is that "good" ?

my version of the Bible says He won't lose even a single one.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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You don't see the phrase 'oral Torah' in Acts 15 however. In fact you don't see it in the Bible, anywhere.

You see in Moses that God commanded him to write down all the laws He gave.

So how do I know you're not just making things up out of thin air & while cloth? Especially as acts 15 explicitly says 'the law of Moses'? You want me to believe that 'the law if Moses' means something entirely different than 'the law of Moses'?
Sure they do....one of a few falllacies employed to give legs to their doctrine that does not bear up under honest scrutiny....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
its good bro

I disagree God told me a gentile to not eat pork. But if you think he told you that, Thats fine, and we will leave it at that.

to me this issue not worth two brothers fighting over.
I am fairly confident that Peter's vision and the words of Paul in the Corinthian letters, nail down this Hebrew roots rigmarole.......Gentiles are not and will not ever be bound under the law within the scope of the New Covenant.....the law has done it's job and deemed the world guilty....that was the only job it was universally applicable unto...period!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113

KJV is also not accurate here, as far as i can tell.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1437 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Ean[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἐὰν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]If[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]25 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]agapate[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀγαπᾶτέ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you love[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PSA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]me[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]με,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]me,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1785 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]entolas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐντολὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]commandments[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1699 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]emas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐμὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]my[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-AF1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5083 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tērēsete[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τηρήσετε.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you will keep.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-FIA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


isn't it interesting how having a small thing wrong can put something largely out of balance?

The KJV was a Paraphrase to correct the some KNOWN ERRORS, and to update the language. You have JUST FOUND another UNKNOWN ERROR that they MISSED.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
why was the man sad if he had no intention of parting with his earthly possessions?

if in his possessions were where his heart lay, and he wasn't going to be parted with them . . ?
Oh, I'm sure he still thought he was going to heaven, he just found another church somewhere that told him what he wanted to hear.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
I am fairly confident that Peter's vision and the words of Paul in the Corinthian letters, nail down this Hebrew roots rigmarole.......Gentiles are not and will not ever be bound under the law within the scope of the New Covenant.....the law has done it's job and deemed the world guilty....that was the only job it was universally applicable unto...period!
WHO CURSED JESUS AND WHY WAS HE CURSED?

DID JESUS TEACH HIS APOSTLES TO PREACH TO ALL NATIONS THAT HE WAS CURSED FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS? DID HE TEACH THEM TO PREACH THAT HE WAS FORSAKEN BY GOD?

DOES GOD HAVE AN ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION AND WHO IS IT'S AUTHOR?

DID CHRIST SPEAK AND DO EVERYTHING ON HIS OWN?

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined ACCORDING TO THE PLAN of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

John 12:49-50 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me COMMANDED ME WHAT TO SAY and how to say it. I know that HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT THE FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.

fHebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

Hebrews 13:5-8 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER.

Isaiah 5:20-24 WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; FOR THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you ask. By saying, “ALL WHO DO EVIL ARE GOOD IN THE EYES OF THE LORD, AND HE IS PLEASED WITH THEM” or “Where is the God of justice?”

Malachi 3:13-18 “You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. WHAT DID WE GAIN BY CARRYING OUT HIS COMMANDMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD AND HONORED HIS NAME. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. AND YOU WILL AGAIN SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED, BETWEEN THOSE WHO SERVE GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,954
13,615
113
Oh, I'm sure he still thought he was going to heaven, he just found another church somewhere that told him what he wanted to hear.
or you could stick to what the Bible actually says.



Christ gave him three commands, go, give what you have to the poor, and then come follow.

first he went. you condemned him for that, but he was following Christ's command.

then, what does the text say? discussing this man as an example, Jesus corrects His disciples saying 'what is impossible with man is possible with God'

if you presume it is impossible that he received life - Jesus directly contradicts you.

he was sad - if he loved his wealth, and he wasn't going to part with it, he would not be sad, only if he intended to obey the Lord.
he was sad - if he did not intend to follow Christ, and he rejected Him, he would not be sad, only if he believed in the Son and thought he could not follow Him.

in either case, his sadness indicates faith.
whatever the case, the scripture explicitly says Jesus loved him.
whatever your own private interpretation and human judgement of him is -- all according to what is very much the mainstream teaching and tradition of men -- Jesus uses him as an example to teach His disciples that all things are possible with God.
this is told in 3 of the gospels. it's important.

do you love your own tradition of interpretation more than what the scripture actually says?
because the scripture simply does not make any of the accusations you are making about him.

very much the common view.
very much wrong, IMO.


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,954
13,615
113
why was the man sad if he had no intention of parting with his earthly possessions?

if in his possessions were where his heart lay, and he wasn't going to be parted with them . . ?
Oh, I'm sure he still thought he was going to heaven, he just found another church somewhere that told him what he wanted to hear.

unsubstantiated, judgmental non-answer.
pure accusatory speculation with no basis in the scripture, made with insinuations contrary to the text.
you can do better; think.


why was the man sad, Studyman?






 
J

joefizz

Guest

unsubstantiated, judgmental non-answer.
pure accusatory speculation with no basis in the scripture, made with insinuations contrary to the text.
you can do better; think.


why was the man sad, Studyman?






Well I do see where Study man is coming from because Jesus loved him offering him treasures in heaven,and even to die alongside him but he as far as we know declined this offer at least in the that point blank case so much to speak,however we don't know if he eventually "accepted" Jesus though you make a great point Post human,his "grieving" shows that he was "considering" selling his possessions however we don't know if he actually "did",mostly what can be gathered are a few things from each gospel perspective..
1.he was a young ruler
2.he had observed keeping the commandments of God since he was a child/youth
3.he had only one thing lacking in Jesus's view
4.it grieved him to think of selling his "great" possessions
5.He was used as an example by Jesus that wealth on earth will not permit entry into heaven
5.Jesus didn't say anything regarding if the man declined his offer or not nor if he were upset with him or if he was going to be condemned
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,758
4,120
113
63
I can accept that:

Romans 14:2-8 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.


Now this is just for your info about my Beliefs. Here is where I believe that GOD PUT AN END, to the dietary laws that were designed to KEEP them away from the Gentiles. SO MUCH, THAT JEWS WHO HAD BEEN FORBIDDEN TO ENTER A GENTILES HOUSE, because of the Unclean animals eaten there; could NOW become bold enough enough to enter his house, knowing GOD HAS CLEANSED the food that the Gentiles eat there.


HERE THE TEMPORARY DIETARY LAWS WERE CLEARLY IN EFFECT:

Ezekiel 4:14 (GW)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I answered, “Almighty LORD, I have never dishonored myself. From the time I was young until now, I have never eaten an animal that died by itself or was killed by other wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth.”


AND HERE THE TEMPORARY DIETARY LAWS WERE ABOLISHED:


Acts 10:10-47 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then he became hungry and wanted to eat, but while they were preparing something, he went into a visionary state.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] He saw heaven opened and an object that resembled a large sheet coming down, being lowered by its four corners to the earth.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] In it were all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, and the birds of the sky.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then a voice said to him, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat!”
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “No, Lord!” Peter said. “For I have never eaten anything common and ritually unclean!”
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Again, a second time, a voice said to him,What God has made clean, you must not call common.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into heaven.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] While Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision he had seen might mean, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions to Simon’s house, stood at the gate.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] They called out, asking if Simon, who was also named Peter, was lodging there.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] While Peter was thinking about the vision, the Spirit told him, “Three men are here looking for you.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Get up, go downstairs, and accompany them with no doubts at all, because I have sent them.”
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Then Peter went down to the men and said, “Here I am, the one you’re looking for. What is the reason you’re here?”
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who has a good reputation with the whole Jewish nation, was divinely directed by a holy angel to call you to his house and to hear a message from you.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Peter then invited them in and gave them lodging. The next day he got up and set out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell at his feet, and worshiped him.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But Peter helped him up and said, “Stand up! I myself am also a man.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP] While talking with him, he went on in and found that many had come together there.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Peter said to them, “You know it’s forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner. But God has shown me that I must not call any person common or unclean.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] That’s why I came without any objection when I was sent for. So I ask: Why did you send for me?”
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Cornelius replied, “Four days ago at this hour, at three in the afternoon, I was praying in my house. Just then a man in a dazzling robe stood before me
[SUP]31 [/SUP] and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your acts of charity have been remembered in God’s sight.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Therefore send someone to Joppa and invite Simon here, who is also named Peter. He is lodging in Simon the tanner’s house by the sea.’
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Therefore I immediately sent for you, and you did the right thing in coming. So we are all present before God, to hear everything you have been commanded by the Lord.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter began to speak: Now I really understand that God doesn’t show favoritism,
[SUP]35 [/SUP] but in every nation the person who fears Him and does righteousness is acceptable to Him.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] He sent the message to the Israelites, proclaiming the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all.
[SUP]37 [/SUP] You know the events that took place throughout Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached:
[SUP]38 [/SUP] how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] We ourselves are witnesses of everything He did in both the Judean country and in Jerusalem, yet they killed Him by hanging Him on a tree.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] God raised up this man on the third day and permitted Him to be seen,
[SUP]41 [/SUP] not by all the people, but by us, witnesses appointed beforehand by God, who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] He commanded us to preach to the people and to solemnly testify that He is the One appointed by God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.
[SUP]43 [/SUP] All the prophets testify about Him that through His name everyone who believes in Him will receive forgiveness of sins.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came down on all those who heard the message.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they heard them speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages and declaring the greatness of God. Then Peter responded,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “Can anyone withhold water and prevent these people from being baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”



EVERYTHING had to be exactly IDENTICAL, because they JEWS would not have Believed if one thing was different than their Experience.
I must spread some rep around before giving to VCO...Thank you for this post , I understand what this Scripture means , it is a wonderful thing to have our eyes opened by the Holy Spirit...xox...
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
It is still hierarchical

I do not believe Jesus set up any such system, but I guess that is the topic for a different thread.
Shortly after Christ differences of opinion on issues arose. This led to the Apostles Creed defining the doctrine that all Christians must adhere to. Everything else is agree to disagree. This includes church government.

Dcon was erroneously saying Presbyterians has the same hierarchical form of government that the Catholic Church has. Catholics have a dictatorial system, Presbyterian name means a republican form of government, some denominations go as far as democratic (congregation votes on most issues). Dcon spouted off in ignorance.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Heretic.

Fries for breakfast?
Unforgivable.
oh man, french fries? You never heard if home fires, or fried potatoes? Your missing at man!
Mind you potentially have a redeeming point.

TOAST,

I fop to add that.


So I have toast, slapped with butter, put my eggs on it.
Then use the rest to mop up the plate.

I do love french toast but not for breakfast.
For supper yes.
We call it dippy bread.

Go read Romans 14.

Fries indeed, pancakes indeed:cool:
now toast with sunny side up eggs? Cant beat it, i like to stick the egg on my toast and eat it like a sandwich after the plate is cleaned up, great finish!

And romans 14..Amen bro!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Again, it is the interpretation that is important. One interpretation is "you will" keep my commands, which almost sounds like a forcing situation. I do not believe that God would force anyone to be righteous or wicked, therefore when gracers say, we are saved and God preserves us through some kind of forcible action on His part, I do not believe that.

The second interpretation would be: Out of love for God, we will keep his commands, and this is probably the kind of thoughts that you are familiar with. Not by force, does he lead us to eternal life, but out of love, we make faith-filled choices that are in line with His commands and eternal life is given.
god does not force people who have truly repented, they do it willingly, because they know where they came from and have no desire to go back.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Oh, I'm sure he still thought he was going to heaven, he just found another church somewhere that told him what he wanted to hear.

How many churches were their back then? Did they have alot to chose from?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Yes there are differences, I would agree, my point is, by and large is there is a hierarchy.

Being able to democratically vote on some issues does soften the authority of the minister, which would be a good thing.

One has to be careful of churches that have a strong authoritarian approach (as power being vested in one person), sometime they have become abusive and some sad cases have happened, however I think this has been more in legalistic fundamentalist circles.

Good to know that there is some balance.


Shortly after Christ differences of opinion on issues arose. This led to the Apostles Creed defining the doctrine that all Christians must adhere to. Everything else is agree to disagree. This includes church government.

Dcon was erroneously saying Presbyterians has the same hierarchical form of government that the Catholic Church has. Catholics have a dictatorial system, Presbyterian name means a republican form of government, some denominations go as far as democratic (congregation votes on most issues). Dcon spouted off in ignorance.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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The KJV was a Paraphrase to correct the some KNOWN ERRORS, and to update the language. You have JUST FOUND another UNKNOWN ERROR that they MISSED.
KJV is a translation completed in 1611 under the order of King James of England. It was started in 1610 and completed in 1611. Try again.

You probably are referring to the NKJV. This is the updated KJV
 
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