Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Read again with some level of understanding and quit falsely representing what I said <--Proverbs 6
Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal
So what.....O.T. saints were saved the same way N.T. saints are....and law keeping is not it......second....if you think for one second that this indicates they kept the law....not only is that foolish, but also reeks of ignorance! There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not....your law keeping drivel is exactly that....drivel
Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal
So what.....O.T. saints were saved the same way N.T. saints are....and law keeping is not it......second....if you think for one second that this indicates they kept the law....not only is that foolish, but also reeks of ignorance! There is not a just man upon the earth that does good and sins not....your law keeping drivel is exactly that....drivel
You reject context to the extent that the word of God on the most basic , 1st grade level alludes you....Funny how people like you post the above while missing the mark like a blind man shooting a 308 at a target 1000 meters away...get some understanding and CONTEXT and then make an accurate statement about my stance....
Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.
Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.
2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.
THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?
Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.
1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.
SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.
OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.
Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”
JESUS SAID;
“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15
…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17
“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24
THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.
A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST
2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.
Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?
They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.
Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?
They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.
1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””
WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)
Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from
God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.
“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)
“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4
Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.
2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.
THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?
Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.
1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.
SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.
OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.
Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”
JESUS SAID;
“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15
…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17
“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24
THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.
A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST
2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.
Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?
They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.
Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?
They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.
1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””
WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)
Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from
God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.
“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)
“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD (Word which became Flesh) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus (Word which became Flesh) unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Are these not Spiritually the same Command? Did Abram listen and refuse to do what the Word which became Flesh instructed him, or did he listen and obey?
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Was he OK in his father's land? Or was it necessary for a change in his life?
Is this not the beginning of every true "Christian" walk? Is this not the same God we all claim as our God?
What if Abram had refused to "follow God"? What if he had said, "No Lord, but first let me go bury my father? But he didn't.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
Is it not a "Righteous Deed" to listen to God, and then do what He says? How can you declare, in Bold letters, that Abraham was "Declared" righteous before he did anything?
If he was already "declared righteous" then why was he instructed to leave his old life? (repent)
And all this aside, why did the Word which became Flesh say He blessed Abraham? Shouldn't we let Him answer this question?
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So your claim;
Is shown by the Bible to be flawed a little. No offence, I know this has been taught by "many" who come in Christ's name. But doesn't it seem the Bible teaches differently?
And what Law do we know for sure Abraham didn't have? He had God's Laws, the scriptures confirm it.
But Levi wasn't even born yet. So there were no way he had the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins. This wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years later as Paul instructed in Gal. 3.
So it is clear that Abraham was not justified by this "ADDED" "law of works", which included the sacrifice of animals, rather, by belief in God. And he believed and trusted Him enough to follow His instructions, even to the point of leaving his family and sacrificing his own son and this was imputed unto him as righteousness and called "FAITH".
As the Word which became Flesh, who does not change, said;
(NOG) Luke 14:[SUP]25 [/SUP]Large crowds were traveling with Yeshua. He turned to them and said, [SUP]26 [/SUP]“If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples. [SUP]27 [/SUP]So those who do not carry their crosses and follow me cannot be my disciples.
So I haven't forgotten the lessons from the Word which became Flesh at all. If you don't agree with this understanding please show in scriptures where it is flawed.
ROFL
Your ignorance is showing about church government. The Catholic church government is a dictatorship. The Presbyterian Church government is a republic. Each church elects representative elders. The church then sends 2 elders and the teaching elder to the next local level up. That body selects representatives to go to the next level up to the ragional body. Then those body's send representatives up to the national level. Depending on the specific denomination these bodies have names like classis and synod. You could have easily learned this by getting a copy on line of the Book of Church Order from the different denominations. The Reformed Church denominations work the same way. I was a deacon and elder in the RCA and Presbyterian PCA denominations. So your ignorant rambling idiocy is just blind hatred for those you disagree with. You end up spouting lies in very obvious ignorance.
Your ignorance is showing about church government. The Catholic church government is a dictatorship. The Presbyterian Church government is a republic. Each church elects representative elders. The church then sends 2 elders and the teaching elder to the next local level up. That body selects representatives to go to the next level up to the ragional body. Then those body's send representatives up to the national level. Depending on the specific denomination these bodies have names like classis and synod. You could have easily learned this by getting a copy on line of the Book of Church Order from the different denominations. The Reformed Church denominations work the same way. I was a deacon and elder in the RCA and Presbyterian PCA denominations. So your ignorant rambling idiocy is just blind hatred for those you disagree with. You end up spouting lies in very obvious ignorance.
Hi UnderGrace,
Yes it is hierarchical, if you eliminate the man at the top, the whole hierarchy system will collapse. Furthermore Endoscopy just explained the entire hierarchical Presbyterian system in his post below and then tries to tell everyone it is not hierarchical. The fact that Endoscopy say's the Church government is a republic and not a dictatorship is disingenuous. All Church members dance to the tune of the man at the top.
The word is, Ecumenical. The World Wide Ecumenical Movement will bring all Church members under the umbrella and authority of the Catholic Church, a one world Church government. The Presbyterian Church is highly supportive of the Ecumenical Movement.
From my personal experience with an Elder of the Presbyterian Church when asking him a question I said, "do you believe that all Catholics are our Christian brothers and sisters", to which he proudly answered, oh yes!
I would be very cautious of a religious system or any Church Body that supports the World Wide Ecumenical Movement.
God bless
Yes it is hierarchical, if you eliminate the man at the top, the whole hierarchy system will collapse. Furthermore Endoscopy just explained the entire hierarchical Presbyterian system in his post below and then tries to tell everyone it is not hierarchical. The fact that Endoscopy say's the Church government is a republic and not a dictatorship is disingenuous. All Church members dance to the tune of the man at the top.
The word is, Ecumenical. The World Wide Ecumenical Movement will bring all Church members under the umbrella and authority of the Catholic Church, a one world Church government. The Presbyterian Church is highly supportive of the Ecumenical Movement.
From my personal experience with an Elder of the Presbyterian Church when asking him a question I said, "do you believe that all Catholics are our Christian brothers and sisters", to which he proudly answered, oh yes!
I would be very cautious of a religious system or any Church Body that supports the World Wide Ecumenical Movement.
God bless
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AND SALVATION IS NOT A REWARD, IT IS A FREE GIFT.
Romans 5:15-17 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed.
{That clearly points out that NEVER is SALVATION something you work for.}
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
Lawd, I haven't been here in a few days and nothing has changed. Salvation by works, salvation kept by works, salvation earned, salvation lost.
I praise God from whom all blessings flow that through His Son Jesus Christ and my acceptance of Him, that I am now, will be tomorrow and throughout all eternity - a saved soul by the gracious free gift of God Almighty
I praise God from whom all blessings flow that through His Son Jesus Christ and my acceptance of Him, that I am now, will be tomorrow and throughout all eternity - a saved soul by the gracious free gift of God Almighty
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 8:12, “Therefore [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but possess the light of life.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"[/FONT]
Nobody believes that salvation is gained by works.
Nobody believes that salvation is kept by works.
Nobody believes salvation is earned by works.
Nobody believes salvation can be lost.
But this I will tell you, if you do not do good works, you were never saved in the first place, so good works establishes the fact that you have faith in Jesus Christ. So true faith leads to true and loving good works. Simple. As James says, good works perfects your faith, or what I said, good works establishes that you have true faith.
If you don't have good works and provide fruit fit for the KOG, then it establishes that you were not saved back in the day, when you had a spiritual experience and you thought your were baptized of the HG. Aperson doesn't lose their salvation, they just never had it to start with.
Nobody believes that salvation is kept by works.
Nobody believes salvation is earned by works.
Nobody believes salvation can be lost.
But this I will tell you, if you do not do good works, you were never saved in the first place, so good works establishes the fact that you have faith in Jesus Christ. So true faith leads to true and loving good works. Simple. As James says, good works perfects your faith, or what I said, good works establishes that you have true faith.
If you don't have good works and provide fruit fit for the KOG, then it establishes that you were not saved back in the day, when you had a spiritual experience and you thought your were baptized of the HG. Aperson doesn't lose their salvation, they just never had it to start with.