Not By Works

[gb9]

that's certainly the mainstream human religious tradition and teaching.

the apostles might have even thought so at the time. but Jesus at that time told them that what was impossible with man was possible with God, and the Spirit makes sure to mention in the text that He loved this man, and all that's written of him is that he was sad, because he had great possessions.

the scripture does not say whether he did what Christ told him or whether he did not. it does not say whether he was sad because he would not, or sad because he was about to actually carry through with it.

human tradition, mainstream religious teaching -- your teaching in this case, studydude -- inserts human judgement and human impossibility and human assumption into the scripture here.

i like to think he did what Christ said. i know that's not a popular view.
but i think, Jesus said "possible" so how long will we continue to say 'impossible' ?

also, the jews of that time thought of the rich as blessed and the poor as cursed. that is why the Disciples asked Christ " who then can be saved ? ".

if some who call themselves " studied " would actually open a history book, and they would understand ancient beliefs a lot better.

 

[posthuman]

<< aside >>


sometimes i just love taking quotes absurdly out of context

I think it is a mistake to change the text.

i agree 100%

'how good and pleasant when brothers dwell together in unity'​

 

[posthuman]

sometimes i just love taking quotes absurdly out of context

here's one that'd probably be pretty fun to use from me haha

sin costo, no hay de qué

 

[posthuman]

also, the jews of that time thought of the rich as blessed and the poor as cursed.

likewise the healthy and the sick, but He told the chief priests and elders 'prostitutes are entering the kingdom before you!'
the physical harlot was declared righteous while the spiritual one was called wicked -- the judgement was "NOT BY WORKS" !

 

[posthuman]

the physical harlot was declared righteous while the spiritual one was called wicked -- the judgement was "NOT BY WORKS" !

((preemptively brings up that the faith of the prostitutes produced repentance & presumably the works that accompany it as fruit, Matt. 21:32 -- yet Matt. 21:32 says belief is how they entered and that those not entering failed to explicitly because they didn't repent and believe))

 

[Studyman]

yeah, you say that, but it just doesn't seem like you're much a fan of "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day"

unless of course you privately redefine most of the words written there ((and ignore completely the New Moon)), like you did with Romans 6:14 just now.
interesting that you equate, by insertion into the text, what is written, "law" with your own private interpretation, 'dead in your sins' -- while preaching that you're under law.

"I lay before you life and death" it's written. "choose life" He says.
"put away the bondwoman" is what scripture says.

I don't believe God's Instructions are "rudiments of the world" and "traditions of man". I don't believe the Pharisees, believers or not, were following the Laws of Moses, nor were they teaching the Law of Moses. Not because some religious franchise owner gave a sermon I liked, but because of what the Word which became Flesh, His Apostles, and the Prophets of old told me about them over and over, as I have showed you.

I don't believe Jesus rejected the Pharisees for trying to do as His Father instructed as many preach. I believe what Jesus said about them, that they rejected His Fathers instructions and created their own, and pushed these "burdens" they created, not God, on the people, which included the New Converts in Acts and the Galatians.

I believe that the Word's of God are "for me" not "against me" as you and others imply. I believe that the deception and spiritual death caused by my rebellion and indifference to the God of the Bible is the "curse of the law" that people are "Under" this death cause by rejecting God and His Word, not by honoring Him by obeying.., and that unless we all repent (change) of this rebellion and indifference to His Word we will remain "under the law" (dead) and not "under Grace" (alive) whether we believe it or not.

I think that deception and death is the Yoke that enslaves people. Not the instructions of God., and this is the Yoke spoken about that the fathers could not bear. Not God's "good" "just" and "Holy" instructions that Jesus walked in. Under the Law in Romans 6:14 is death, not life. We can't have both. Since we have all been brought to death, we either stay there "Under the Law" or we are freed from this death through Faith, "Grace".

I have made my case regarding acts 15 and you disagree. Not because you showed me a study from the Bible which includes many scriptures to confirm, but because the conclusions from my study bring your religious traditions and doctrines into question. It is much easier to just ignore what the Word actually says, than to humble ones self to it. The Pharisees were a shining example of this.

It seems You have been convinced that God's instructions are the burden on mankind, like the serpent convinced Eve. I simply do not see the evidence to support this belief if you use the Bible as the standard.

Remember what Paul said about the preachers of his time.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I simply do not believe God's Commandments are the problem in this world.

 

[VCO]

I look at it this way, God does not put us under bondage, it is outside of His character. So if He told us not to eat something I will do it, not because I am afraid to sin but it is required of me in my relationship with God. With limited research we will find that pork meat is actually bad for you so I trust God I am not missing out on something good

I don't judge anybody for eating anything I simply state what is in our manual from the mouth of God

I can accept that:

Romans 14:2-8 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.


Now this is just for your info about my Beliefs. Here is where I believe that GOD PUT AN END, to the dietary laws that were designed to KEEP them away from the Gentiles. SO MUCH, THAT JEWS WHO HAD BEEN FORBIDDEN TO ENTER A GENTILES HOUSE, because of the Unclean animals eaten there; could NOW become bold enough enough to enter his house, knowing GOD HAS CLEANSED the food that the Gentiles eat there.


HERE THE TEMPORARY DIETARY LAWS WERE CLEARLY IN EFFECT:

Ezekiel 4:14 (GW)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I answered, “Almighty LORD, I have never dishonored myself. From the time I was young until now, I have never eaten an animal that died by itself or was killed by other wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth.”


AND HERE THE TEMPORARY DIETARY LAWS WERE ABOLISHED:


Acts 10:10-47 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then he became hungry and wanted to eat, but while they were preparing something, he went into a visionary state.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] He saw heaven opened and an object that resembled a large sheet coming down, being lowered by its four corners to the earth.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] In it were all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, and the birds of the sky.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then a voice said to him, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat!”
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “No, Lord!” Peter said. “For I have never eaten anything common and ritually unclean!”
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Again, a second time, a voice said to him, “What God has made clean, you must not call common.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into heaven.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] While Peter was deeply perplexed about what the vision he had seen might mean, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions to Simon’s house, stood at the gate.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] They called out, asking if Simon, who was also named Peter, was lodging there.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] While Peter was thinking about the vision, the Spirit told him, “Three men are here looking for you.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Get up, go downstairs, and accompany them with no doubts at all, because I have sent them.”
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Then Peter went down to the men and said, “Here I am, the one you’re looking for. What is the reason you’re here?”
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who has a good reputation with the whole Jewish nation, was divinely directed by a holy angel to call you to his house and to hear a message from you.”
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Peter then invited them in and gave them lodging. The next day he got up and set out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell at his feet, and worshiped him.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But Peter helped him up and said, “Stand up! I myself am also a man.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP] While talking with him, he went on in and found that many had come together there.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Peter said to them, “You know it’s forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner. But God has shown me that I must not call any person common or unclean.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] That’s why I came without any objection when I was sent for. So I ask: Why did you send for me?”
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Cornelius replied, “Four days ago at this hour, at three in the afternoon, I was praying in my house. Just then a man in a dazzling robe stood before me
[SUP]31 [/SUP] and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your acts of charity have been remembered in God’s sight.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Therefore send someone to Joppa and invite Simon here, who is also named Peter. He is lodging in Simon the tanner’s house by the sea.’
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Therefore I immediately sent for you, and you did the right thing in coming. So we are all present before God, to hear everything you have been commanded by the Lord.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter began to speak: “Now I really understand that God doesn’t show favoritism,
[SUP]35 [/SUP] but in every nation the person who fears Him and does righteousness is acceptable to Him.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] He sent the message to the Israelites, proclaiming the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all.
[SUP]37 [/SUP] You know the events that took place throughout Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached:
[SUP]38 [/SUP] how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP] We ourselves are witnesses of everything He did in both the Judean country and in Jerusalem, yet they killed Him by hanging Him on a tree.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] God raised up this man on the third day and permitted Him to be seen,
[SUP]41 [/SUP] not by all the people, but by us, witnesses appointed beforehand by God, who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] He commanded us to preach to the people and to solemnly testify that He is the One appointed by God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.
[SUP]43 [/SUP] All the prophets testify about Him that through His name everyone who believes in Him will receive forgiveness of sins.”
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came down on all those who heard the message.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they heard them speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages and declaring the greatness of God. Then Peter responded,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “Can anyone withhold water and prevent these people from being baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”



EVERYTHING had to be exactly IDENTICAL, because they JEWS would not have Believed if one thing was different than their Experience.

 

[Studyman]

i suppose that's supposed to be your answer to "where in Torah does it say get rid of everything you have and give it to the poor" ?

if 'have no other gods' means 'have no possessions' why did He command them to ask for the possessions of the Egyptians, to take possession of lands, and to spoil cities? how could He command tithe of possessions if He meant for no one to have any?

((maybe we shouldn't redefine/replace the text of scripture - seems to lead to awful confusion))

If you place your possessions or religion or religious traditions before God and His Word, then it is your god. I wouldn't expect you to understand given your posts.

 

[BillG]

its good bro

I disagree God told me a gentile to not eat pork. But if you think he told you that, Thats fine, and we will leave it at that.

to me this issue not worth two brothers fighting over.

Not a great fan of pork, but I love bacon.

I also love

Prawns, lobster, crabs, mussels, cockles, winkles, shimp and scallops.

Mind you I am a selfish person, oops meant shellfish person

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not a great fan of pork, but I love bacon.

I also love

Prawns, lobster, crabs, mussels, cockles, winkles, shimp and scallops.

Mind you I am a shellfish person

its just not breakfast without bacon or sausage!!

 

[benhur]

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, {You were SAVED the moment you first BELIEVED.}
you will keep My commands. {After genuine SALVATION, you will be able to LOVE HIM in the form of Obedience, a normal lifestyle change from HAVING BEEN SAVED.}

Isn't it interesting how different translations add complications to the interpretation of scritpure.

HCSB If you love me, you will keep my commands.
KJV If you love me, keep my commandments.

The KJV is pretty precise, and an interpretation is not difficult. Every body knows where you stand. If you are keeping Jesus's commandments, it means you love him. If you are not, then you do not love him.

The HCSB invokes a new angle in the interpretation. The KJV interpretation can be found in the HCSB verse, but here is the other interpretation for gracers: If you love me, you will keep my commands. (I will make sure you do, so you will maintain your path to eternal life. Your free will and your free agency is taken away from you, you become nothing but a puppet of mine, but you will be with me forever.)

I can see why gracers like this interpretation because it provides more of an automatic path to eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Isn't it interesting how different translations add complications to the interpretation of scritpure.

HCSB If you love me, you will keep my commands.
KJV If you love me, keep my commandments.

The KJV is pretty precise, and an interpretation is not difficult. Every body knows where you stand. If you are keeping Jesus's commandments, it means you love him. If you are not, then you do not love him.

The HCSB invokes a new angle in the interpretation. The KJV interpretation can be found in the HCSB verse, but here is the other interpretation for gracers: If you love me, you will keep my commands. (I will make sure you do, so you will maintain your path to eternal life. Your free will and your free agency is taken away from you, you become nothing but a puppet of mine, but you will be with me forever.)

instead of trying to put your personal spin on what you think people say, why don’t you just listen to them and understand what they are really saying, this boldes highlight is oneof the most rediculous things i havee er heard, and in all my years have never heard anyoneeven insinuate this line of thinking, whether out in the world talking to believer and non believer alike, or in christian chat.

I can see why gracers like this interpretation because it provides more of an automatic path to eternal life.

you cant see anything because your blinded by what you think peopl say or believe, until you use some sauve and remove what blinds you, you will never see what people actually believe

 

[posthuman]

If you place your possessions or religion or religious traditions before God and His Word, then it is your god. I wouldn't expect you to understand given your posts.

that doesn't mean the Torah commands "give all you have to the poor."
the very same Solomon who said "it is not good to eat too much honey" also said "eat honey, for it is good"

have you sold all you have and given it away? if that's what you think the meaning of 'have no other gods' is. or do you judge this man in the scripture of whom it's written, Jesus loved, but don't judge yourself by the same measure? how much do you love your own tradition of condemning him?

 

[BillG]

its just not breakfast without bacon or sausage!!

English bacon though and Scottish sausage.

So my favourite breakfast is.

Bacon
Sausage (Scottish or normal)
Eggs (fried, poached or scrambled)
Black pudding
Mushrooms
Plum tomatoes
Baked beans

Yum yum.

 

[BillG]

English bacon though and Scottish sausage.

So my favourite breakfast is.

Bacon
Sausage (Scottish or normal)
Eggs (fried, poached or scrambled)
Black pudding
Mushrooms
Plum tomatoes
Baked beans

Yum yum.

I forgot the mention washed down with orange juice.

It's important to keep a balanced diet.

 

[posthuman]

Isn't it interesting how different translations add complications to the interpretation of scritpure.

HCSB If you love me, you will keep my commands.
KJV If you love me, keep my commandments.

The KJV is pretty precise, and an interpretation is not difficult.

KJV is also not accurate here, as far as i can tell.

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[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
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[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1437 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Ean[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἐὰν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]If[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]25 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]agapate[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀγαπᾶτέ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you love[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PSA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]me[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]με,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]me,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1785 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]entolas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐντολὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]commandments[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1699 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]emas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐμὰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]my[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-AF1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5083 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tērēsete[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τηρήσετε.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you will keep.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-FIA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
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isn't it interesting how having a small thing wrong can put something largely out of balance?

 

[star]

Works done in the Name of Christ are good. They show that we are being used by our Creator for His Good Will.

Faith comes before anything. Faith is the evidence of our hope in God Almighty and acceptance of His free gift of salvation is our action.

The seal of the Holy Spirit is the surety of our eternal soul's state.

Praise be to God Almighty for being so merciful and so full of love and forgiveness that He would offer salvation to His creation who is so undeserving.

 

[Studyman]

that doesn't mean the Torah commands "give all you have to the poor."
the very same Solomon who said "it is not good to eat too much honey" also said "eat honey, for it is good"

have you sold all you have and given it away? if that's what you think the meaning of 'have no other gods' is. or do you judge this man in the scripture of whom it's written, Jesus loved, but don't judge yourself by the same measure? how much do you love your own tradition of condemning him?

Your unbelief or lack of understand doesn't make the Faith of God void.

This man walked away from His Salvation because he placed something before God. The Word which became Flesh, that gave Moses and Abraham HIS LAWS didn't instruct us to "sell everything we have and give to some random poor people.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Had the man not placed his possessions above God, had the man realized that his very existence, and the existence of his wealth was God's to begin with, he would have said, as Abraham did when instructed by this same God to leave his family or to sacrifice his son, "Yes LORD, as you wish,

He had his wealth, others have their time, others have their traditions, others have their friends and family. Paul explains it best.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD(The Word which became Flesh) had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Matt. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Same God, Same message. All that's left to do now is believe enough to comply.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

English bacon though and Scottish sausage.

So my favourite breakfast is.

Bacon
Sausage (Scottish or normal)
Eggs (fried, poached or scrambled)
Black pudding
Mushrooms
Plum tomatoes
Baked beans

Yum yum.

Remove the beans, shrooms and tomatoes, and add a big ole batch of home fries and toast, and you have a breakfast/brenner i could eat 24/7, feel free to replace toast with french toast or blueberry pancakes smothered in warm maple syrup!

 

[BillG]

Remove the beans, shrooms and tomatoes, and add a big ole batch of home fries and toast, and you have a breakfast/brenner i could eat 24/7, feel free to replace toast with french toast or blueberry pancakes smothered in warm maple syrup!

Heretic.

Fries for breakfast?
Unforgivable.

Mind you potentially have a redeeming point.

TOAST,

I fop to add that.


So I have toast, slapped with butter, put my eggs on it.
Then use the rest to mop up the plate.

I do love french toast but not for breakfast.
For supper yes.
We call it dippy bread.

Go read Romans 14.

Fries indeed, pancakes indeed