In and out of the kingdom of God

know1 · Apr 17, 2018

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

If Jesus is the door that a man enters in to be saved, then what happens when he goes out the same door he entered in at?

One cannot enter in the kingdom of God without first having eaten Jesus' flesh and drank His blood.

Can we go out of the kingdom of God while still being sons and daughters, even as the prodigal son left his father and his kingdom and remained the father's son? The father never cast the son out but the son left willingly, drawn away by his own lusts. And while the son was in the devil's camp/world, did the man ever stop being the son of the father he left, even in his fallen state?

Jesus said all things are possible to him that believes.

Salvation is possible to him that believes, because in the world of faith, all things are possible.

But what happens when we get drawn away in sin and move out of faith?

What world is the devil the god of?

Isn't it this natural world?

So is it possible for us to leave the world of faith and enter the devil's world, when we become carnally minded and start walking in and according to the natural? Like when someone becomes sick and we immediately run to the doctor's office?

If the natural world is the devil's world, then where is the kingdom of God, and how do we both get and stay there?

Or is it not possible to leave the kingdom of God?

If it is possible to go out of the kingdom of God, have we then fallen from the grace of God? Is that when the protection of God leaves us?

Or is it just not possible to go both in and out of the door that leads to salvation?

Many questions, what do you think?

notmyown · Apr 17, 2018

i think you missed a big part of Jn 10:9

they shall go in and out and find pasture

this doesn't speak to the sheep leaving Christ's fold... it speaks to His faithfulness to His sheep in giving them good pasture.

Nehemiah6 · Apr 17, 2018

know1 said:

Short answer: NO. Those who have been born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God, have also been "translated into" the Kingdom of God ("the Kingdom of His dear Son" -- Col 1:13)), having been brought out of the Kingdom of Darkness. If they do sin, God has made full provision of them to deal with their sins, or failing that, for God to deal with their sins.

This parable should not be applied indiscriminately. It is about the Father's love for His errant child, and how repentance restores the fellowship of the son with the Father.

mailmandan · Apr 17, 2018

notmyown said:

Amen! Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Joidevivre · Apr 17, 2018

I've always felt that the "in and out" refers to my prayer life. Sometimes I pause in the midst of my hectic day and go "in" to His presence to find the peace and sustaining I need (likened to a pasture).

know1 · Apr 17, 2018

notmyown said:

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

If Jesus is the door to salvation, and entering "in" speaks of entering into said salvation, how then does the "out" speak to Jesus' faithfulness? I don't see the connection.

One would think when you enter through the door/Jesus, by faith into salvation, that they entered into the kingdom of God.

The subject of Jn 10:9 is the door, and there is no period after the door that would suggest a change in the subject. The word "and", is a continuation or extension of the thought of the subject, which again is "the door", and there is only one door mentioned that one enters in or goes through. So how do we go in one door and "out" another to find pasture?

Joh 10:9 I G1473 am G1510 the G3588 door: G2374 by G1223 me G1700 if G1437 any man G5100 enter in, G1525 he shall be saved,G4982 and G2532 shall go in G1525 and G2532 out, G1831 and G2532 find G2147 pasture. G3542

In
G1525
εἰσέρχομαι
eiserchomai
ice-er'-khom-ahee
From G1519 and G2064; to enter (literally or figuratively): - X arise, come (in, into), enter in (-to), go in (through).

Out
G1831
ἐξέρχομαι
exerchomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to go or come forth of
1a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or the point from which he departs
1a1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
1a2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaphorically
2a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it
2b) to come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of
2c) to go forth from one’s power, escape from it in safety
2d) to come forth (from privacy) into the world, before the public, (of those who by novelty of opinion attract attention)

Out
G1831
ἐξέρχομαι
exerchomai
ex-er'-khom-ahee
From G1537 and G2064; to issue (literally or figuratively): - come-(forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

Find
G2147
εὑρίσκω
heuriskō
hyoo-ris'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary word εὕρω heurō; which (together with another cognate form, εὑρέω heureō) is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect; to find (literally or figuratively): - find, get, obtain, perceive, see.

Pasture
G3542
νομή
nomē
Thayer Definition:
1) pasturage, fodder, food
1a) fig. he shall not want the needful supplies for the true life
2) growth, increase
2a) of evils spreading like a gangrene
2b) of ulcers
2c) of a conflagration

Another word for pasture is food, and the one spiritual food we are to feed on is the word of God.

1Co_3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

So how does all this speak of "His faithfulness to His sheep in giving them good pasture"?

And what does the word "out" speak of? You failed to mention that.

know1 · Apr 17, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

My idea of being in the kingdom of heaven is one of protection, rest, and in the favor and grace of God. How does that line up with those who sinned against God, and God caused them to either be sick or die early?

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

This is a warning to the church, which speaks of departing from God, due to their sinning.

If we are delivered form darkness when righteousness enter in us, then what happens when we stop walking in God's light and start on a path of sin?

1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Who do you think took offense to the children of God taking communion, when they did so unworthily, and then make them weak and sickly, and some even unto death?

Nehemiah6 said:

There are many lessons in the parable. It is not solely about God's love for His wayward child.

The fact is the father represents the Father of lights and the son represents His children or the church, who leaves the father, which would represent where God our Father resides, and goes to live in the devil's world of sin. Do you honestly think God would allow him to stay in the kingdom of heaven?

know1 · Apr 17, 2018

mailmandan said:

I heard that He is not made of wood either.

But where have you read that Jesus is not a revolving door?

Scripture please.

graceNpeace · Apr 17, 2018

know1 said:

So, you want Scriptural proof for something that is NOT in Scripture!!!??!!
Perhaps you need to take a course in Logic....

know1 · Apr 17, 2018

Joidevivre said:

What about the "out" part?

What do you see that representing in your prayer life?

know1 · Apr 17, 2018

graceNpeace said:

When I say something, I have scripture to back it up, because the word of God is the truth from which I get my doctrines.

Since when does God's higher ways have anything to do with logic.

Those who walk according to logic, fail to walk by or live by faith, for faith defies logic.

graceNpeace · Apr 17, 2018

know1 said:

With respect,

this is an extraordinarily illogical response...

As for the issue of faith - the reason I believe in the Bible (have faith in it) is precisely because it makes sense (is logical)!
Your assertion that the two - faith and logic - are in opposition really makes me worry about your faith...

However, I will leave you to strange views and not trouble you further.

mailmandan · Apr 17, 2018

know1 said:

John 10:1 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them. 7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

mailmandan · Apr 17, 2018

know1 said:

No mention in either case of a "loss of salvation."

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have become already partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

We (genuine believers) don't (1 John 3:9)

This was unto physical death, not spiritual death. 1 Corinthians 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

Joidevivre · Apr 17, 2018

know1 said:

I know that I am always in His presence, but the out part is probably when I am not consciously aware of it and my mind is caught up with burdensome details of my day. When I go "in", I am centering only on being ministered by Him.

Since Jesus does not elaborate on the details, I would believe that the Holy Spirit causes each person who meditates on that verse to see it the way they need to. When He gives me insight, it is usually simple and easy for me to understand. He might use different words for someone else.

know1 · Apr 18, 2018

mailmandan said:

John 10:1 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them. 7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

"and will go in and out"

Revolving door.

mailmandan · Apr 18, 2018

know1 said:

John 10:9 is not talking about going in and out of Jesus/the Door as if He is a revolving door of salvation and loss of salvation.

John 10:9 (AMP) - I am the Door; anyone who enters through Me will be saved [and will live forever], and will go in and out [freely], and find pasture (spiritual security).

The good shepherd conducts his flock to the fields where good pasture is to be found; watches over them while there, and brings them back again and secures them in the fold.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 18, 2018

mailmandan said:

This is true. Look at vss 3-4 of John 10:

John 10:

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

mailmandan · Apr 18, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

Amen! Context is important.

Deror · Apr 18, 2018

Not read all of the thread, I'll try to. But just wanted to share what scripture came to my mind when I read about 'going in and out' - Psalm 121 and Psalm 139. Sorry if it's not relevant... But I thought of God watching all our 'goings in and goings out'
Lol, King James words

God Bless

[h=1]Psalm 121 King James Version (KJV)[/h]121 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.
3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.
4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
5 The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand.
6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

King James Version (KJV)Public Domain

In and out of the kingdom of God

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