Women should not be allowed to preach in church

[notuptome]

For a woman with no authority she sure had a lot of pull with her husband and others in her life.

Don't they all? LOL

Respect women as the weaker vessel. They are precious.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Blain]

Don't they all? LOL

Respect women as the weaker vessel. They are precious.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Remember the old days when a women tried to vote? for shame

 

[Icetech]

I am well aware of what Paul says about women speaking in church and having authority over man and granted I don't know exactly how else to interpret it but I can't help but feel it is misunderstood

God created men and women different for a reason. They are meant to compliment each other. I believe Paul implies that bishops should be married. First off he needs to know how to rule his household (1 Timothy 3:4-5)

[FONT=&quot]This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Timothy 3:1-2

The fact is that are feelings and emotions can mislead us. They should never supersede logic and something that is plainly written in scripture.


[/FONT]

 

[Dino246]

The transgression(s) in the garden were usurping and repudiating authority, both criminal trespasses the received the sentence of routine domination of Eve for usurping Adam's authority, so that she might learn the proper skills of consultation and deference perhaps, and resistance of everything including the kitchen sink for Adam's repudiation of his sensibilities, so that he might learn the proper skills of conflict management and assertion, not necessarily total dominance, as each did have right to otherwise legitimate authority.

This is anachronism... attributing error to actions which, based on available information, were not "wrong" at that time. As Scripture says, "for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). Scripture does not record any such commands given to either Eve or Adam, so to attribute error to them based on things revealed later is incorrect.

Further, Eve didn't usurp anything. That's a retroactive application of 1 Timothy 2:12... where "usurp" is a questionable translation anyway. The primary problem in Eden was NOT that Adam and Eve were not in right relationship with each other.

 

[Dino246]

I think the real question is if Adam was present during the conversation between Eve and the serpent.

There is absolutely nothing that suggests he was not present.

 

[CS1]

According to 1Tim 2 v 12 , saying women should not be allowed to lead . why is the scripture saying this? but this days we have great women of God.Can we now say they are working against the scripture ?

the bible not say a women cannot lead it say rule over a man . Or be a Pastor .

 

[Dino246]

And a fine example that human nature does not change. Don't like what God has declared? Then simply change it or go around it to satisfy your own vanity.

God said women are not to preach and man says that is not what God really said. Women are equal says man.

What if God does not care about your opinion? What if God said and God expects you to accept what He said because He said it?

Human nature ruined by the fall.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are trying to draw a significant connection between the actions of a brazenly pagan queen and the actions of Christian women merely on the basis of gender. They're not connected. Period.

Consider how much of the sin recorded in Scripture is the actions of men (not women)... then rethink your irrelevant example.

 

[Dino246]

...The fact is that are feelings and emotions can mislead us. They should never supersede logic and something that is plainly written in scripture.

However, what is "plainly written in Scripture" should be thought through, not blindly accepted and followed. Otherwise you get, "Judas went and hanged himself. ... Go and do likewise".

It is enormously tempting to take certain verses plainly instead of peeking under the thick rug of context.

 

[notuptome]

Remember the old days when a women tried to vote? for shame

Look at the shape we are in as a result. When America was founded only property owners could vote. America was founded as a republic not a democracy. Democracy deteriorates into mob rule and socialism.

I do not think any person should be able to vote unless they file a tax return. Tax payers would be far more circumspect about how the politicians spend the money than those who just have good intentions but do not contribute the required funds.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Icetech]

However, what is "plainly written in Scripture" should be thought through, not blindly accepted and followed. Otherwise you get, "Judas went and hanged himself. ... Go and do likewise".

It is enormously tempting to take certain verses plainly instead of peeking under the thick rug of context.

What a terrible comparison. The story of Judas in a narrative. Paul's letter to Timothy is instructional.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15

 

[Dino246]

What a terrible comparison. The story of Judas in a narrative. Paul's letter to Timothy is instructional.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15

I find it just a little disingenuous that you criticize my example, but didn't respond similarly to "notuptome" for his use of Jezebel as an example of women who might feel a call to preach or pastor.

With regard to the few verses that seem to proscribe female leaders in church, I challenge you to look carefully at the context... linguistic, subjective, cultural, and religious.

 

[Icetech]

I find it just a little disingenuous that you criticize my example, but didn't respond similarly to "notuptome" for his use of Jezebel as an example of women who might feel a call to preach or pastor.

With regard to the few verses that seem to proscribe female leaders in church, I challenge you to look carefully at the context... linguistic, subjective, cultural, and religious.

What does notuptome have to do with you? What you post will stand or fall on its own merit. I contend that the context of 1 Timothy 2 is pretty straight forward and it is clearly a set of instructions. If you see it differently than please feel free to elaborate on it.

 

[Mem]

This is anachronism... attributing error to actions which, based on available information, were not "wrong" at that time. As Scripture says, "for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). Scripture does not record any such commands given to either Eve or Adam, so to attribute error to them based on things revealed later is incorrect.

Further, Eve didn't usurp anything. That's a retroactive application of 1 Timothy 2:12... where "usurp" is a questionable translation anyway. The primary problem in Eden was NOT that Adam and Eve were not in right relationship with each other.

True, man was given dominion over all other things of the earth, and not male over female, and so, according to the [limited] available information, I [might have] surmised that there must have been a disturbance in the balance of power from the actually "wrong" that is done and thus hurdling us all into a state of instability that we currently enjoy.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Holy cow that is just too funny it's unfairly funny where on earth did you find that!?

It was from a 1990's weekly comedy sketch show. I recalled it while I was reading some of the posts in this thread. Sometimes I feel a little light-relief is in order. We get so serious & severe in here.

 

[garee]

Could you clarify if the premise here is that a woman is incapable of deferring to [righteous] authority? As I see it, the issue of appropriate of deference of one's will for another's is not conditional upon the gender of the deferer but upon the righteousness of the spirit by which the deferee is governed by.

She is as capable as a man.We as new creatures are no longer looked at as male or female ,Jew nor gentile .

 

[Icetech]

There is absolutely nothing that suggests he was not present.

It is presumptuous to say that Adam was a witness to the conversation between the serpent and Eve. Adam clearly states to God Himself that the woman gave him the fruit. God then questions Eve and she passes blame to the serpent. This sequence of events is in perfect harmony with 1 Timothy and 2 Corinthians.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

Beguiled Adam? No Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Timothy 2:14

Deceived Adam? No Eve.

You can think Adam was present all you want but the fact of the matter is that it was Eve that was deceived by the serpent and not Adam. Was Adam guiltless? Of course not because he disobeyed the commandment of God and what did God say?

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree….Genesis 3:17

The Bible does not give any evidence that Adam was aware of the conversation between the serpent and Eve. Adam was guilty of listening to his wife instead of obeying God.

 

[garee]

What applied to one applied to the other. It was a joint venture. They ate simultaneously in the twinkling of the eye.

It was not first to sin dies. But you shall be as gods, more than one, the first recorded division that caused a fight that continues today..

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. Gen 3:5

The law was directed at mankind. They were created as one creation. It did not matter to which one made the first move.. The other had the responsibility to act as one. Adam failed to protect the better half. It would be like Christ failing to provide for his wife the new creation, the whole Church

It was not the woman who was to go on her belly and crawl.Women rule Men drool .(lol)

Satan the murder from the very beginning was just trying to kill the human race which would begin with the child bearer.

Adam was to represent the unseen seed Christ. Both the woman and the man as one working together if perfect harmony and submissiveness to one another . Sort of like the father and Son.

In respect to the new ceremonial law (1 Corinthians 11) as a result of the time of reformation which has all been been thrown on the way side. The hair covering for the woman and the hair uncovered for the man was to show the proper equal order . If the man does cover his hair /head. The new ordinance is made to no effect or if the woman does not cover her representative glory of God’s hidden glory the same is made to no effect.

 

[Didymous]

I actually have an honest question for those who believe a women should not teach or speak in church. If a mother is in church with her child and her child asks what the gospel is and why Jesus had to die and she explains it and teaches her child this has the mother then in god's eyes sinned?

Since Paul said women could teach other women and children, what's the problem?

 

[Dino246]

It is presumptuous to say that Adam was a witness to the conversation between the serpent and Eve. Adam clearly states to God Himself that the woman gave him the fruit. God then questions Eve and she passes blame to the serpent. This sequence of events is in perfect harmony with 1 Timothy and 2 Corinthians.

...

You can think Adam was present all you want but the fact of the matter is that it was Eve that was deceived by the serpent and not Adam. Was Adam guiltless? Of course not because he disobeyed the commandment of God and what did God say?

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree….Genesis 3:17

The Bible does not give any evidence that Adam was aware of the conversation between the serpent and Eve. Adam was guilty of listening to his wife instead of obeying God.

The Bible also gives no evidence that Adam was not aware of the conversation. You're making an argument from silence. The Bible records no words spoken by Eve to Adam after she was deceived and before they ate, yet as you say, Adam "hearkened" unto the words of his wife. You either have to believe that she spoke words that were unrecorded (speculation) or believe (consistently with the record) that Adam heard at least her side of the conversation with the serpent... because he was with her.

 

[MarcR]

IMO the reason women are not to preach or lead has NOTHING to do with competence. There are women in these positions who are being used effectively. IMO People make mistakes; and when mistakes are made in these positions, God wants a man to 'take the heat'

Paul, who wrote that he does not allow women to instruct men [in the church] also wrote " all things are lawful but not all things are expedient. The fact that something happens and God works through it does NOT mean that it is His will or His desire that it happen.