Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Everyone of us on this forum would say under oath that we 'trust' Jesus. Then we must all be OK, right, even though we do not all agree 100% about doctrinal issues?

How can we all be ok if we teach different gospels? Can you explain this? Is God a universalist?

 

[benhur]

Hmmmm.... ElAmor wants to add OBEDIENCE to God's laws as a requirement for salvation? (based on his last quote to dcon that wasn't scripture)

How much OBEDIENCE is enough?

If you fall short, does that mean you don't get into heaven?

What happens if you trip and fall while running the race and break a leg?

What does God do?

What is God's role in what you see as the plan of salvation?

Is He just a cheerleader or does He carry you when you can't walk another step?

Does He nourishes you and give a you cool water to drink? Or is He a stern master expecting His dinner before He allows you the scraps from the table?

How does God work in your life?

Oh my goodness, we must obey God's commandments. What an awful doctrine, you heretic.

 

[benhur]

The only obedience he wants from us is the obedience of trust. If He has that, He does make us law abiding in our inner man because we are trusting Him to do it.

So we are pretty much puppets on the end of a string that God is in control of? Trust and we turn into puppets. Is that how it works. If that were the case, there would only be 1 page to the bible, and that page would only talk about 'trust' God and then God will take over and you will be saved.

Why would there need to be any discussion of anything else except 'trust' God, and he will take over your life and lead you to salvation?

I think because the bible is what it is, there is more to it than what you are trying to convince everybody about. Read the entire bible, not just the 1 page that you concentrate on.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh my goodness, we must obey God's commandments. What an awful doctrine, you heretic.

You must think yourself to be perfect. Is this so?

 

[benhur]

Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are 100% lost. Until those who have misplaced their trust in self come to realize it by getting to the end of the creature, they will not get to the beginning of the Creator.

If you survey all the participants on this forum, we would all tell you that we are 100% trusting in Christ for our salvation. So does that mean I have to agree with you 100% about the doctrinal issues before you will admit that I trust in Christ 100%?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So we are pretty much puppets on the end of a string that God is in control of? Trust and we turn into puppets. Is that how it works. If that were the case, there would only be 1 page to the bible, and that page would only talk about 'trust' God and then God will take over and you will be saved.

Why would there need to be any discussion of anything else except 'trust' God, and he will take over your life and lead you to salvation?

I think because the bible is what it is, there is more to it than what you are trying to convince everybody about. Read the entire bible, not just the 1 page that you concentrate on.

Nope.

but is what ytour saying any better? Do this or else I will inflict my wrath. Ie, either do what. Say or I will toss you out with the trash.

God gave moses the law. And said perfection was required, anythign that fell short of this would cause the one who broke the law to be inder a curse.

Did God toss all people who did not live up to his standard out with the trash?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you survey all the participants on this forum, we would all tell you that we are 100% trusting in Christ for our salvation. So does that mean I have to agree with you 100% about the doctrinal issues before you will admit that I trust in Christ 100%?

saying you trust 100% abd actually doing it are not the same.

We do not teach the same gospel. How can we all be saved?

 

[VCO]

The Liberal Theology bunch that Believe that a Loving God would not send anybody to hell, would not have Liked Dr. Gil Rugh's sermon this morning. It was based on these verses:


Revelation 14:6-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then I saw another angel flying high overhead, having the eternal gospel to announce to the inhabitants of the earth—to every nation, tribe, language, and people.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He spoke with a loud voice: “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP] A second angel followed, saying: “It has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen, who made all nations drink the wine of her sexual immorality, which brings wrath.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And a third angel followed them and spoke with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, which is mixed full strength in the cup of His anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] This demands the perseverance of the saints, who keep God’s commands and their faith in Jesus.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: The dead who die in the Lord from now on are blessed.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them!”


He pointed out that SULFUR becomes a fiery red liquid at 392 Degrees Fahrenheit

 

[benhur]

Mixing grace and works is like mixing oil and water. They are incompatable and can not mix

Mixing grace with works of love is like mixing oil with oil. Mixing grace with no works in like mixing oil with dried up dead oil. Just ask the debtor in the parable of the merciful king?

 

[VCO]

Oh my goodness, we must obey God's commandments. What an awful doctrine, you heretic.

Now, you are stooping to call others "HERETIC", remember GOD is the author of Poetic Justice.


1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

YOU ARE SINNING WHEN YOU BREAK THE SPEED POSTED ON THE SIGN, EVEN IF IT IS ACCIDENTAL.

 

[benhur]

Jesus told the pharisee they could not keep the law in a way required to save themselves (he even said our righteousness must excede theirs,) They crucified him for it

Why people today keep making the same mistakes thepharisee made is beyond my conprehension. Why do they keep making the same mistakes, and thinking the outcome will be any different?

The pharisees rejected Jesus and did not have faith in him.

We OTOH believe in Jesus and we do have faith in him. Big difference.

They rejected Jesus and were keeping the law of Moses for the wrong reasons.

We believe and have faith in Jesus and we also keep the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) for the right reasons. Big difference.

 

[Endoscopy]

How can we all be ok if we teach different gospels? Can you explain this? Is God a universalist?

Are you talking about different views of why Jesus died on the cross or other issues outside the Apostles Creed? The early church had issues that they disagreed about. The Creed was created to define who was and wasn't a Christian. All other issues were to be agreed to disagree about. There are many different denominations Two groups adhere to Calvinism and Armenianism. They are diametrically opposed in the pereferal issues but both adhere to the Creed

Reformed/Calvinist
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

 

[benhur]

They disgust me. Why do they invade a Christian web site with obvious atheist views?

How do you use the 'atheist' card to describe people on this forum that do not believe 100% of what you believe. Are we not all Christians (which = those disciples who follow Jesus)? Your choice of 'atheist' is unfortunate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The pharisees rejected Jesus and did not have faith in him.

We OTOH believe in Jesus and we do have faith in him. Big difference.

They rejected Jesus and were keeping the law of Moses for the wrong reasons.

We believe and have faith in Jesus and we also keep the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) for the right reasons. Big difference.

They did not keep the law of moses as required. Jesus told them that over and over, They could not. Niether can you, why do you think you can.

They failed to keep the first. Lert alone much of the rest. And jesus pointed that out many times,.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mixing grace with works of love is like mixing oil with oil. Mixing grace with no works in like mixing oil with dried up dead oil. Just ask the debtor in the parable of the merciful king?

Paul said if it is grace it is no longer of works, other wise, grace is no longer grace.

Grace and works can nto be mixed, trhey cancel each other out. Do you trust pauyl or not?

 

[benhur]

Ariel82,

.traditions of men like having to end prayer with "in Jesus name we pray" or praying with your eyes closed and hands folded.

I read nothing more of your post after I read these disgusting practices. A mature Christian like yourself should not have to be a witness of this type of disgraceful traditions of some disgusting Christian folk. Sorry you were put through it. Hope you recover and stay a mature Christian.

 

[dcontroversal]

Not gonna go into a long essay this time, Just gonna present the word.


James 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (Gal 3:4-9) 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith and works go hand and hand, It you have faith, works will be manifested, but we can't be saved by works alone, Love to God must come first, and trusting in him, Once that happens you'll want to tell others of his love, and share the gospel, and keep the law he gave, It must all go together, It can't be separated otherwise faith isn't faith, It's just feeling or something you do just so you want go to hell, same with works, They must go hand and hand, and that's what the Christian walk.

Galatians 3 is no contradicted by this verse, Only explained, the full meaning here, Works must not come first, we must all have faith first, But once you have faith works come immediately after, It's a process, Not that Works are bad, Paul talks about Good works, But keeping the law should never be our focus, We should love God, and love fulfills the law, "If You Love Me Keep My Commandments" If you love God you'll keep the statues and commands he gives, Because you love him, But if you do it just because you don't want to die in Hell, then you really haven't made a commitment, Works don't save you, their only the results our you being saved.



Godbless.

So what, context Pal.....We conclude, a man is justified by faith without works <-Paul who wrote almost half the N.T.....James is not about being justifed before God and or how one obtains salvation!

 

[dcontroversal]

No one states that works are impossible to do.

What is stated is that works do not save and to add them as a requirement of salvation is to make yourself an idol.

For you are not trusting that God saves and that through His works in you, you are truly adopted but instead seek to do works to earn what God has already given you freely, which grieves the Holy spirit..,, trying to finish in the flesh what is given in the spirit.

God wants us to work as an extension of His love...NOt in order to earn His love.

How can we give what we have not first received?

Amen...was gonna say what you said.....just bump your post

 

[Ariel82]

You mistake the traditional method of praying and ignore why it is used. Ending a prayer with in Jesus name we pray is Biblical since Jesus stated that what we ask in his name will be done. Closing one's eyes and folding one's hands is helping the person not to be distracted while praying. I remember reading that the position of a person doesn't matter. An example of this was a person who was accidentally caught in a rope and hanging upside down in a well will be heard as well as a pious position.

No, I didn't ignore anything. I spoke against legalism ...you kind of missed the point of what I was posting...,,

I recognize that there is purpose to traditions but that doesn't make them laws people have to follow in order to be holy or "stay saved"

 

[benhur]

How much OBEDIENCE is enough?

If you fall short, does that mean you don't get into heaven?

What happens if you trip and fall while running the race and break a leg?

What does God do?

Does He nourishes you and give a you cool water to drink? Or is He a stern master expecting His dinner before He allows you the scraps from the table?

****

You answered some of my questions but not these.



Or do you always obey perfectly?

Let's answer these questions:

1) How much OBEDIENCE is enough? God says to obey, so we do, God will judge, not you or I.

2) If you fall short, does that mean you don't get into heaven? No, remember it is by the grace of God that you get into heaven, if you fall short, and you have faith in Jesus he will pick you up and make up the difference, and you will enjoy eternal life with him and God.

3) What happens if you trip and fall while running the race and break a leg? Have you ever heard of repentance?

4) What will God do? If you have faith in God, he will forgive you and you will have eternal life with him and God.

5) Does He nourishes you and give a you cool water to drink? Or is He a stern master expecting His dinner before He allows you the scraps from the table? He nourishes and gives you cool water to drink, and if you have faith in him, and if you say that you love him, he expects you to follow him and to become like him. So Jesus nourishes and commands. Read your bible and get used to it. He commands that you forgive. If you choose not to forgive, Jesus will not forgive you. Just 1 example of many.

6)What happens if God convicts and chastens you of sin? If you do not forgive for instance you will not be forgiven. That is what the bible says. If God convicts you of sin and chastens you of sin, you better get in line and repent of these sins, and get back to our first love which is faith in Jesus Christ and love of Jesus Christ, and trust that he will remove your sin as you come unto him.

7) Or do you always obey perfectly? There is only 1 man that has obeyed perfectly, and that is Jesus. All other men have the tools of faith and repentance to smooth out their bumpy paths, and then with our ever abiding faith and trust in Jesus, we look to him for mercy, knowing that our works are not enough to make it into heaven. We are needful of his mercy and grace to make the difference between our sinful lives and our eternal perfection in his presence.

Good questions.