Not By Works

[mailmandan]

This thread is about mixing law and grace as a means to eternal salvation.

For those whoever who want to mix sanctification and justification

Those who mix sanctification and justification also usually mix DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I normally hear it called faith. Faith that God loves us enough to not only cleanse us from our sins but teach us to walk in His righteousness and add to our faith, virtue, wisdom, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love...,then we do good works out of love for others that God has given us and not just obedience or self control...

The Pharisees fell short because their focus was on keeping the Law and not the Law giver.

I know, I say trust because it is easier for me to understand than the word faith. I now can understand them interchangeably but I use the word trust for easier grasping by others. They mean the same thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those who mix sanctification and justification also usually mix DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

Mixing grace and works is like mixing oil and water. They are incompatable and can not mix

 

[Ariel82]

Mixing grace and works is like mixing oil and water. They are incompatable and can not mix

You know this statement can be easily misunderstood?

Sanctification and justification are both a part of salvation

Just as grace and works are part of living in Christ

The issue many have is understanding that salvation is by the grace of God and faith in Him alone.

We don't have faith in our good works to save us, they are just a part of who we are in Christ. To not do what God shows us is needed to be done in love is to deny the Holy spirit within us.

It comes down to who and what do you trust and belief for your salvation?

God alone?

or your obedience and perceived good works to earn you a place in Heaven?

Are you already a child of God and a citizen of heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion?

Or are you a slave, born of Hagar?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know this statement can be easily misunderstood?

Sanctification and justification are both a part of salvation

Just as grace and works are part of living in Christ

The issue many have is understanding that salvation is by the grace of God and faith in Him alone.

We don't have faith in our good works to save us, they are just a part of who we are in Christ. To not do what God shows us is needed to be done in love is to deny the Holy spirit within us.

It comes down to who and what do you trust and belief for your salvation?

God alone?

or your obedience and perceived good works to earn you a place in Heaven?

Are you already a child of God and a citizen of heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion?

Or are you a slave, born of Hagar?

I do not see them as confusing if taken in context.

Grace and works in the context of salvation are like mixing water and oil. They do not mix, and you will not give God this mixture and say here God, this is why I should be let into heaven.

As far as after one is saved, Works are a result of grace, again, I do nto see them as being mixed. I see the result of grace being works. This is what the bible teaches.

I do see justification and “positional sanctification” as being part of the gospel. But only by grace.

Conditional sanctification is a lifelong process, and is Gods work of growing us to be more like him.

 

[TruthTalk]

We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, Even keep the law.

so you can do better than any man who ever lived but Christ and keep the whole law and not stumble in one area? Really?

People like this have truly "Fallen From Grace", I pray the kindness of God will lead him to repentance. People who say yes I am saved by grace but in addition I need to keep God's Law, need to study the fundamentals of the faith diligently because they missed a few important Sunday School lessons.

Saved by Grace:Epheasians2:8-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People like this have truly "Fallen From Grace", I pray the kindness of God will lead him to repentance. People who say yes I am saved by grace but in addition I need to keep God's Law, need to study the fundamentals of the faith diligently because they missed a few important Sunday School lessons.

Saved by Grace:Epheasians2:8-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Jesus told the pharisee they could not keep the law in a way required to save themselves (he even said our righteousness must excede theirs,) They crucified him for it

Why people today keep making the same mistakes thepharisee made is beyond my conprehension. Why do they keep making the same mistakes, and thinking the outcome will be any different?

 

[Ariel82]

I do not see them as confusing if taken in context.

Grace and works in the context of salvation are like mixing water and oil. They do not mix, and you will not give God this mixture and say here God, this is why I should be let into heaven.

As far as after one is saved, Works are a result of grace, again, I do nto see them as being mixed. I see the result of grace being works. This is what the bible teaches.

I do see justification and “positional sanctification” as being part of the gospel. But only by grace.

Conditional sanctification is a lifelong process, and is Gods work of growing us to be more like him.

It still stands that the statement alone can be easily misunderstood.

The concepts of positional sanctification versus conditional sanctification is often lost or confused.

Plus the Bible uses the imagery of oil and water as good things and are great as salad dressing...lol

Not disagreeing with you, just trying to get in front of the strawmen before they get erected.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It still stands that the statement alone can be easily misunderstood.

The concepts of positional sanctification versus conditional sanctification is often lost or confused.

Plus the Bible uses the imagery of oil and water as good things and are great as salad dressing...lol

Not disagreeing with you, just trying to get in front of the strawmen before they get erected.

thats why people need to ask questions, and not just assume, then masny of these so called confusions would go away.

 

[TruthTalk]

I do not see them as confusing if taken in context.

Grace and works in the context of salvation are like mixing water and oil. They do not mix, and you will not give God this mixture and say here God, this is why I should be let into heaven.

As far as after one is saved, Works are a result of grace, again, I do nto see them as being mixed. I see the result of grace being works. This is what the bible teaches.

I do see justification and “positional sanctification” as being part of the gospel. But only by grace.

Conditional sanctification is a lifelong process, and is Gods work of growing us to be more like him.

It will also help a new believer to walk alongside a mature Christian who can help him become sure and confident in his Christian walk. To be discipled by someone you trust can benefit the believer and edify the body of Christ.

To distinguish between Grace and works we were taught that Grace is our "Position in Christ" and Works is the "Practice of our faith"; God sees our position in Christ as being perfect because of Jesus and His shedding His blood on our behalf. God sees our practice as what we do toward maturity in Christ. Sounds simple but it will keep you on the right tract to maturity in Christ.

To rub shoulders with mature Christians can bring a blessing to any believer no matter how mature you may be. Would it not be the most excellent experience of our faith if we we able to sit at Jesus feet just like the disciples would and listen in awe at every word that He speaks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It will also help a new believer to walk alongside a mature Christian who can help him become sure and confident in his Christian walk. To be discipled by someone you trust can benefit the believer and edify the body of Christ.

To distinguish between Grace and works we were taught that Grace is our "Position in Christ" and Works is the "Practice of our faith"; God sees our position in Christ as being perfect because of Jesus and His shedding His blood on our behalf. God sees our practice as what we do toward maturity in Christ. Sounds simple but it will keep you on the right tract to maturity in Christ.

To rub shoulders with mature Christians can bring a blessing to any believer no matter how mature you may be. Would it not be the most excellent experience of our faith if we we able to sit at Jesus feet just like the disciples would and listen in awe at every word that He speaks.

Sadly for many a church, they have made the mistake of leading people to Christ, then leave them to their own resource without actually discipling them.

They have the evangelism part down, they miss the discipling part. That was said to be one of Billy Grahams greatest regrets, that he helped all these people find god. Then did not make sure they had the resources to help them grow.

 

[Ariel82]

thats why people need to ask questions, and not just assume, then masny of these so called confusions would go away.

No it wouldn't because at the end of the day, some people still believe they have to work for their salvation.

It's easier to make a straw man and torch it; then face the fact that filthy rags don't save.

Idols are hard for folks to give up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No it wouldn't because at the end of the day, some people still believe they have to work for their salvation.

It's easier to make a straw man and torch it; then face the fact that filthy rags don't save.

Idols are hard for folks to give up.

thats true, and when they continue to do this, Thats on them, but at lease other people who see, can learn to understand, or like them continue to believe the way they do.

 

[Endoscopy]

He and about 3 to 5 others really do nothing more that level false allegations, twist what we say, embellish what we say, are dishonest with what we say and basically do nothing more than float bias opinion encapsulated in long, drawn out speeches filled with pretense.....I get tired of hearing it........

They disgust me. Why do they invade a Christian web site with obvious atheist views?

 

[Ariel82]

It will also help a new believer to walk alongside a mature Christian who can help him become sure and confident in his Christian walk. To be discipled by someone you trust can benefit the believer and edify the body of Christ.

To distinguish between Grace and works we were taught that Grace is our "Position in Christ" and Works is the "Practice of our faith"; God sees our position in Christ as being perfect because of Jesus and His shedding His blood on our behalf. God sees our practice as what we do toward maturity in Christ. Sounds simple but it will keep you on the right tract to maturity in Christ.

To rub shoulders with mature Christians can bring a blessing to any believer no matter how mature you may be. Would it not be the most excellent experience of our faith if we we able to sit at Jesus feet just like the disciples would and listen in awe at every word that He speaks.

You know i am the youngest person in many of the meetings and Bible studies I have attended and learned that many mature people are not all that mature in Christ.

People forget what the essentials are and some teach false doctrines they never questioned...traditions of men like having to end prayer with "in Jesus name we pray" or praying with your eyes closed and hands folded.

Some people think they are mature and should be listened to when they are not.

I recognize a mature Christian by their humbleness, by the fact they point to God more than themselves. They are not threatened by questions but answer with patience and kindness. They are not shaken by those who disagree or insult them but respond with firmness in love and point always to scriptures.

Mature Christians are able their humanness and apologize when they fail. They are honest and face life beside one another...not above or below. All are equal in Christ, we just have different gifts and talents and roles to play in the body of Christ.

Mature Christians learn from mentoring youth as much as they teach.

 

[Endoscopy]

Mixing grace and works is like mixing oil and water. They are incompatable and can not mix

Not entirely correct. The Bible states faith without works is dead Therefore real faith generates works thus validating the faith. Grace is what saves us but works is evidence of grace in the persons life.

 

[benhur]

Of course not. Romans and Galatians don't cancel out Mathew. And Mathew doesn't cancel out Romans and Galatians. But do you suppose that YOU are the one who changes your heart so that you even CAN forgive? If forgiveness was JUST a wise choice, and not something He gives us by changing your heart if you trust Him, then forgiveness would not require God at all.

You do not get to forgiveness by choice. You get to the virtue of forgiveness through trust. The obedience is not :FORGIVE! The obedience is: TRUST!

Does Matthew 6:15 say if you do not trust your fellow men, God will not trust you. No it is talking about forgiveness.

If you forgive, God will forgive you.

If you do not forgive, God will not forgive you. Nothing about "if you trust God". All about the simple (and complex) principle of "if you forgive", then he will forgive, OR if you forgive not, he will forgive not. You make a choice and he follows through with the consequences.

You say: if you trust God, he is the one that will change your heart so that you CAN forgive. OK, I can live with that, but their is still a decision on your part to 'trust' God. So it is not all up to God, you must answer for your own self at some point.

IOW, if I were to have a serious discussion with all the people that showed up to church on Sunday, I would ask them if they trusted in Jesus. How many would say 'yes'? I would guess nearly 100%. Then I would ask that they be honest and tell me if they are holding any type of a grudge against someone in their life that they have not forgiven because they had an evil thing done to them in the past. I would guess around 25% would say they have a bad relationship with someone that they have not forgiven for an evil done to them in the past.

So for this 25%, (who said they trust in God), has God decided not to change their hearts, so they CANNOT forgive, so that he CANNOT forgive them, and their eternal life is in jeopardy. Is that how it works?

 

[Endoscopy]

You know i am the youngest person in many of the meetings and Bible studies I have attended and learned that many mature people are not all that mature in Christ.

People forget what the essentials are and some teach false doctrines they never questioned...traditions of men like having to end prayer with "in Jesus name we pray" or praying with your eyes closed and hands folded.

Some people think they are mature and should be listened to when they are not.

I recognize a mature Christian by their humbleness, by the fact they point to God more than themselves. They are not threatened by questions but answer with patience and kindness. They are not shaken by those who disagree or insult them but respond with firmness in love and point always to scriptures.

Mature Christians are able their humanness and apologize when they fail. They are honest and face life beside one another...not above or below. All are equal in Christ, we just have different gifts and talents and roles to play in the body of Christ.

Mature Christians learn from mentoring youth as much as they teach.

You mistake the traditional method of praying and ignore why it is used. Ending a prayer with in Jesus name we pray is Biblical since Jesus stated that what we ask in his name will be done. Closing one's eyes and folding one's hands is helping the person not to be distracted while praying. I remember reading that the position of a person doesn't matter. An example of this was a person who was accidentally caught in a rope and hanging upside down in a well will be heard as well as a pious position.

 

[benhur]

The only obedience he wants from us is the obedience of trust. If He has that, He does make us law abiding in our inner man because we are trusting Him to do it.

Everyone of us on this forum would say under oath that we 'trust' Jesus. Then we must all be OK, right, even though we do not all agree 100% about doctrinal issues?

 

[TruthTalk]

No it wouldn't because at the end of the day, some people still believe they have to work for their salvation.

It's easier to make a straw man and torch it; then face the fact that filthy rags don't save.

Idols are hard for folks to give up.

Hi Ariel82, you are absolutely right, such as the OSAS straw man argument and once on fire we should all get our water buckets to put out the fire. The only reason behind this foolish argument is so they can say see, you really can lose your eternal salvation,

Another good point is if they add or mix Grace with Works, they are setting up their works as "an Idol", pride can also become an Idol.