Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
A bit of truth in these words,but we are not under the law neither even the unbelievers but the law is "still here" as you said indeed it is just as present now as it was in years past and "has not changed" and the penalty of "death" for sins was paid by Jesus,but "willful shameless sin" is still "dangerous" even for we who "are saved" the law is now a matter of "right" and "wrong" not "strict abiding" by it,for true we ought to "take to heart" "every single commandment and statute" to "be weary of" for the "prying eyes" of unbelievers are upon us "daily".
It is to be understood that "the law" is used for God to "chasten us" and "make unbelievers excuseless" for when they stand before Jesus on Judgement day for particularly there is one commandment/statute that one must "abide by" to "be saved" accepting Jesus as Saviour and Lord and his works for as Jesus himself said "none come to father except through the son" and just as John 3:15 and 3:16 tell of "belief in Jesus" to receive "everlasting life"(Salvation) so the law is also a "manual for accepting Salvation and for discerning what sin is".
It is to be understood that "the law" is used for God to "chasten us" and "make unbelievers excuseless" for when they stand before Jesus on Judgement day for particularly there is one commandment/statute that one must "abide by" to "be saved" accepting Jesus as Saviour and Lord and his works for as Jesus himself said "none come to father except through the son" and just as John 3:15 and 3:16 tell of "belief in Jesus" to receive "everlasting life"(Salvation) so the law is also a "manual for accepting Salvation and for discerning what sin is".
True.
Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,the moral laws,laws of love.
The Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh,and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able,and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
People who are led of the Spirit are not under the law,because their sins are forgiven and they are not sinning,therefore the law cannot touch them for prosecution.
But we always have to obey the law for it is spiritual,holy,just,and good.
When Paul speaks of faith alone,not saved by works,and not saved by the law,he is speaking that while we were in the flesh,but then states after we have the Spirit that if you do not have charity,works of love,then you are nothing and have erred from the faith,the same thing as James says.
People should understand when Paul is speaking from the flesh,and from the Spirit,and not drag from the flesh throughout their life claiming Christ.
Faith with out works is dead,works of love,which some lack,and we are not under the law because we are led of the Spirit abstaining from sin.
If people hold unto sin then they are not led of the Spirit,are under the law,and the blood of Christ cannot wash away that sin.
We always have to obey the law,but not the physical ordinances of Israel.
Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,the moral laws,laws of love.
The Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh,and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able,and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
People who are led of the Spirit are not under the law,because their sins are forgiven and they are not sinning,therefore the law cannot touch them for prosecution.
But we always have to obey the law for it is spiritual,holy,just,and good.
When Paul speaks of faith alone,not saved by works,and not saved by the law,he is speaking that while we were in the flesh,but then states after we have the Spirit that if you do not have charity,works of love,then you are nothing and have erred from the faith,the same thing as James says.
People should understand when Paul is speaking from the flesh,and from the Spirit,and not drag from the flesh throughout their life claiming Christ.
Faith with out works is dead,works of love,which some lack,and we are not under the law because we are led of the Spirit abstaining from sin.
If people hold unto sin then they are not led of the Spirit,are under the law,and the blood of Christ cannot wash away that sin.
We always have to obey the law,but not the physical ordinances of Israel.
Any message that contradicts the truth of biblical salvation is dogma....it is faith alone that saves a man, results in being born again from above by incorruptable seed and places one into the vine.....works have nothing to do with that process....and it is eternal based upon the power, promises, work and imputed righteousness of Christ without law and or works....
Can you simply read what I wrote without embellishing or adding to/subtracting from what I have said.....I mean serious....and a cursory reading of this thread will reveal atleast a dozen to 50 times that I have made clear that we are not under the condemnation of the law and the law is for the lawless.....and regardless....the words of Jesus and Paul must be interpreted in light of the fact that Jesus was born, lived and died under the LAW which ratified the NEW COVENANT OF GRACE!
Here's a truth ZOMBIES cannot accept;
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
The very reason they will be rejected by the Lord because they love to call Him Lord but never do what He says (luke 6:46) because they're just WALKING DEAD.
Here's they're fate accdg to scriptures;
Matthew 25:28-30,45-46 “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 22:13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Psalm 49:13-14 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.
John 12:35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who WALKS IN THE DARK does not know where he is going.
John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
The very reason they will be rejected by the Lord because they love to call Him Lord but never do what He says (luke 6:46) because they're just WALKING DEAD.
Here's they're fate accdg to scriptures;
Matthew 25:28-30,45-46 “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 22:13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Psalm 49:13-14 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.
John 12:35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who WALKS IN THE DARK does not know where he is going.
John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Galatians 5:18
I think it is easy to miss-understand Paul and the apostles.
We obey Gods commands but are not judged by them because we fulfill them in
living by love.
Just because we obey the commands does not make us righteous, it is our faith
the is reckoned as righteousness, because it is the relationship which is our life.
To Paul the law was all the sacrificial law and compliance with the temple, circumcision.
The moral law is the action of love.
So being under the law in Pauls sense is the whole of the Torah, which is no longer true
in Christ. Of the ceremonial law the apostles reduced this down to
"You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."
Acts 15:29
The whole point of meeting Jesus is walking in love, having purity and holiness within.
Rules and legalism can not bring this about, because what flows from an impure heart
will always defile the person.
There appears in some a fixation on salvation, as if this is what matters, rather than
walking with Jesus in His ways, is salvation, and eternal life.
Eternal life is eternally walking with Jesus and in His ways. So if you cannot cope or
rejoice in His ways today, you certainly will not for eternity. The reason to love and to
serve, to be humble, to give and receive are the marks of a follower of Christ because
this is who Jesus is.
So just saying it is ok not to forgive someone, is to fail at step 1. Anyone who does this
has failed to grasp the cross or giving your life up for Him. In Him we have no rights, or
defences or ways of justifying ourselves. We are His servants submitted to His will.
To not forgive is simply not to understand this very first step, because He has forgiven
us, when we were guilty of sin, and justifiably worthy of the lake of fire.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 2:20-23
According to John, those who are anointed know the truth, because their hearts
testify to them about what the truth is.
Now who is Jesus. The son of God who purifies our hearts. We are the temples of
the Holy Spirit.
For those who deny they can be purified, who determine Gods power is limited to leaving
them impure, unholy believers who cannot walk in Jesus's ways, deny Jesus is the Christ,
God become man, who brought good news of setting the prisoner free.
So there Jesus who can only save them in name but not is real life, is weak and ineffectual,
a faith of failure and struggle, where guilt and condemnation is their daily experience, and
no peace or love flowing within, but worldly passions over which they have no control.
They are twice blinded, once by unresolved sin, and secondly by claiming to know Christ
yet not repenting, confessing and finding purification.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Galatians 5:18
I think it is easy to miss-understand Paul and the apostles.
We obey Gods commands but are not judged by them because we fulfill them in
living by love.
Just because we obey the commands does not make us righteous, it is our faith
the is reckoned as righteousness, because it is the relationship which is our life.
To Paul the law was all the sacrificial law and compliance with the temple, circumcision.
The moral law is the action of love.
So being under the law in Pauls sense is the whole of the Torah, which is no longer true
in Christ. Of the ceremonial law the apostles reduced this down to
"You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."
Acts 15:29
The whole point of meeting Jesus is walking in love, having purity and holiness within.
Rules and legalism can not bring this about, because what flows from an impure heart
will always defile the person.
There appears in some a fixation on salvation, as if this is what matters, rather than
walking with Jesus in His ways, is salvation, and eternal life.
Eternal life is eternally walking with Jesus and in His ways. So if you cannot cope or
rejoice in His ways today, you certainly will not for eternity. The reason to love and to
serve, to be humble, to give and receive are the marks of a follower of Christ because
this is who Jesus is.
So just saying it is ok not to forgive someone, is to fail at step 1. Anyone who does this
has failed to grasp the cross or giving your life up for Him. In Him we have no rights, or
defences or ways of justifying ourselves. We are His servants submitted to His will.
To not forgive is simply not to understand this very first step, because He has forgiven
us, when we were guilty of sin, and justifiably worthy of the lake of fire.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 2:20-23
According to John, those who are anointed know the truth, because their hearts
testify to them about what the truth is.
Now who is Jesus. The son of God who purifies our hearts. We are the temples of
the Holy Spirit.
For those who deny they can be purified, who determine Gods power is limited to leaving
them impure, unholy believers who cannot walk in Jesus's ways, deny Jesus is the Christ,
God become man, who brought good news of setting the prisoner free.
So there Jesus who can only save them in name but not is real life, is weak and ineffectual,
a faith of failure and struggle, where guilt and condemnation is their daily experience, and
no peace or love flowing within, but worldly passions over which they have no control.
They are twice blinded, once by unresolved sin, and secondly by claiming to know Christ
yet not repenting, confessing and finding purification.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
N
maybe i was too harsh?
please... you dont have to call me "your honor"....
we have both fallen short of His glory and are just men
lets start fresh
and take it 1 verse at a time if you want to have an honest discussion
romans 10 and context vvvvvv
____________________
Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
______________________
paul is saying it is his hearts desire and in his prayers that israel might be saved.... he has first hand seen (once being a pharisee who believed his own righteousness would save him as opposed to Christ's) their efforts to do Gods will but they lack knowledge
they are self righteous seeking to establish themself by their works according to the law and not the righteousness of Jesus who salvation is truely gained by
_________________
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
___________________
now we live by the word of faith
dont go around judging whos going to heaven or hell according to the law
know that by faith we are saved
____________________
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
______________________
if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth on Jesus name you will be saved.... no matter who you are
what you did
and where youre from
and do not be ashamed (for we have all fallen short)
_________________
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
______________________
heres what you asked 10-14
how would anyone believe the word of faith if they not heard?
faith comes by hearing
.......
do you not agree with this?
why would you even ask this?
no out of context verses and random spamming please
Last edited by a moderator:
Here is the crux of the theological divide.
Nineveh was judged because of its behaviour, and not destroyed because it repented and
changed its ways.
According to your proposition NNM, Nineveh would have been spared if they believed in God
and did not change.
You cannot have a moral dimension to walking with Jesus and not have judgement on failure
or there is no morality, and it is only faith.
We come to the gate, sinners, enter and are changed, washed clean and walk out saints
empowered to walk in love. In your theology, one is no different walking in as walking out
other than covered by Jesus. It does not transform the believer in a real sense of being
able to walk in a pure holy way. But this simply denies the apostles words.
And you cannot have a partial implication of sin, either sin is still effective at defiling
a believer or not. And once you say not, you have become a lawless believer, who cannot
tell good from evil, lostness and darkness from the light.
If before you came to your insight, you struggled to stay clean, and that was your focus,
this is the way of legalism. If you desired to walk in love and bless others through Jesus,
then you would have had the power and focus to overcome the sin within. Talking always
about sin is a problem, rather dealing with it, and confessing and finding resolution in Jesus
is the key. But most people stay isolated, alone, struggling privately without prayer and help
of others, so only see issue from one perspective. Finding rest and love in Christ matters, also
sharing and having fellowship with others is crucial, as well as prayer and praise in Christ, dwelling
in His word.
Now when believers mock knowing Jesus's words, you know they do not know the power of
Christ in them, and the eternal words of Jesus will never fade or dim.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Jesus has always been talking about real life and reality, not pretend and covering
while failing.
Nineveh was judged because of its behaviour, and not destroyed because it repented and
changed its ways.
According to your proposition NNM, Nineveh would have been spared if they believed in God
and did not change.
You cannot have a moral dimension to walking with Jesus and not have judgement on failure
or there is no morality, and it is only faith.
We come to the gate, sinners, enter and are changed, washed clean and walk out saints
empowered to walk in love. In your theology, one is no different walking in as walking out
other than covered by Jesus. It does not transform the believer in a real sense of being
able to walk in a pure holy way. But this simply denies the apostles words.
And you cannot have a partial implication of sin, either sin is still effective at defiling
a believer or not. And once you say not, you have become a lawless believer, who cannot
tell good from evil, lostness and darkness from the light.
If before you came to your insight, you struggled to stay clean, and that was your focus,
this is the way of legalism. If you desired to walk in love and bless others through Jesus,
then you would have had the power and focus to overcome the sin within. Talking always
about sin is a problem, rather dealing with it, and confessing and finding resolution in Jesus
is the key. But most people stay isolated, alone, struggling privately without prayer and help
of others, so only see issue from one perspective. Finding rest and love in Christ matters, also
sharing and having fellowship with others is crucial, as well as prayer and praise in Christ, dwelling
in His word.
Now when believers mock knowing Jesus's words, you know they do not know the power of
Christ in them, and the eternal words of Jesus will never fade or dim.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Jesus has always been talking about real life and reality, not pretend and covering
while failing.
N
i havent unblocked you since you falsely accused
lied
then lied about lying
while pushing a false gospel
youre fruit shines through your sugar coated deceptive words
i unblocked one message just to see if it was directed st me
and look at that
all understanding of man
no scripture or verses or context
i singled out one segment of what you said
because you did that
honestly i didnt read much else of what you said
_________________
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
Some seem to mistake the objective of participating in forums with domination of one point
of view.
We all bring our own experiences and perspectives, and given our backgrounds some might
find this hard to take.
I love to here from the Lord through other peoples inspiration and testimony, which is why
forums are such a blessing,
grace and Peace to you
____________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
im only bringing scripture
my "point of view" has always been subject to change based on Gods inspired written word
those beliefs that are obvious lies
are cursed and those who push them are to be as well
those who God has revealed the truth too here
only wish to correct those who are trying to spread a false gospel
all different members of the body wish to shine light on these who are currently functioning as wolves in order they be born again as sheep
some with a gentle hand to try to guide
other with a forceful arm wishing to yank them from the broad path
its a shame some have eyes that dont see
and ears that dont hear
because the truth lies in Jesus finished work on the cross
by His grace through faith we can be saved
and it is not of our works
those who are His
remain His
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
___________________________
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
"those beliefs that are obvious lies
are cursed and those who push them are to be as well"
"functioning as wolves"
These are strong words, dangerous accusations.
In the past such words have led to one group actually killing another over
points of view of faith, claiming the other side were really xxxxxxxxxxxx evil.
It is always easy to do this than understand why things are said and believed.
So I suggest rather than cursing scripture, and cursing believers, you actually
take time to let the Lord show you what love is and how it works.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus
_____________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
notice i said those who function as wolves are those who preach a false gospel
and im not going to kill anyone
so rest easy
_____________
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
My friend, I do not know what you are going to do.
Your heart will limit how far your emotions run.
But cursing believers and beliefs generally is not a good idea, endangers your eternal future.
You need to know the Spirit who you follow, and what are His ways.
Unfortunately those who go down this road you are travelling harden their hearts to the extent
they know how to lash out, but not much more, and have become captives of their passions.
grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen
________________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
you said i cursed scripture
i said false gospels are cursed
those who spread them are CURRENTLY FUNCTIONING AS wolves
i hope God opens your eyes "light"
you did falsely accuse me
but i was once also functioning as a wolf
until God showed me the truth
if you are offended by what i said
that should tell you something
_______________
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
So I am falsely accusing you of cursing beliefs and believers?
And my concern over your spiritual state by cursing should tell me I have problems?
My friend, God help the confused soul you have become,
grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus.
_____________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
you are confused
these are your words
"
So I suggest rather than cursing scripture, and cursing believers, you actually"
i never once cursed anyone
i said FALSE preachers ARE cursed BASED on
SCRIPTURE
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
you have now been a false witness over and over
you are in error
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
beliefs that are obvious lies
are cursed and those who push them are to be as well
those who God has revealed the truth too here
only wish to correct those who are trying to spread a false gospel
all different members of the body wish to shine light on these who are currently functioning as wolves in order they be born again as sheep
_________________________
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
I wonder at the animosity people have in their hearts.
Does anyone need a clearer signal than, Jesus is not here, I have serious problems
and am trying very hard to cover them up.
Grapes and figs, or thorns and thistles.
Gentleness and a humble heart, or strident putting people in their place, which is it?
A young child in a nursery could spot the differences. People want spiritual authority
and recognition so badly and think bullying and harrying actually is the road to walk.
Grace and peace to you all, in Christ Jesus who humbled himself and went to the cross
for our sins, Amen
_____________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
i cant speak for everyone
but since you have been talking directly to me
i forgive you
and have no animosity despite your lies and false witnesses
and character attacks even if you refuse to admit your error
if i bold or make something big
its in hopes you understand what i mean
________________
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
My friend, beliefs are not obvious lies, because that is why so many believe them.
The brainwashed and indoctrinated always declare a particular view is so obviously
wrong, yet we fought two world wars with millions of people believing they were right,
and there were many lies and truths spoken by both sides.
Jesus called us to love our enemies, because the truth is we are the same, and often
put different people in the role of the enemy and friend, and both are wrong.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
First they came - Pastor Marin Niemoller
I have seen many religious groups, from RCC to wakey house church, good people in all
yet with many contradictions.
I look to the best in all and their contributions,
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
My friend, you have said I lied. I told you how your words came across and reflected
back a warning. People love to play innocents, I never meant the curse on them no
on them because they really really deserve it.
And making it bigger, fonts just means you are so emotionally carried away you cannot
accept some simply do not agree with you. But that should be ok.
Wisdom. If someone with a good heart points something out that is a problem saying
they are lying and bearing a false witness just testifies about who you are and nothing else.
This is behaviour of thorns and thistles, not grace and love.
I hold no animosity towards you, I have met this approach before, a steam train wanting to
push all before it. I admire the enthusiasm, but not the content.
And your words, God forgive your extreme expressions of sin and accusation.
Grace and peace to you
_____________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
i corrected you BEFORE i said you lied
i let you know you falsely accused me
then you rejected reproof
even after i TOLD you what i said
and showed you
quoted it to show you where you first misunderstood
you rejected this
after that it was a lie
Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
You really think people desiring to follow Jesus are cursed and their sharing is cursed?
_______________
Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
did i say that?
No.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
you go ahead and keep making false accusations
i never cursed anyone or anything
i said false preachers are cursed
i never said believers
i said false preachers (who pervert the gospel of Christ)
i never said scripture
i said false gospel
and when i said currently functioning as a wolf
i implied they too can come to the truth by "currently"
if you are asking if i think
"You really think people desiring to follow Jesus are cursed and their sharing is cursed"
1944. epikataratos ►
Strong's Concordance
epikataratos: accursed
Original Word: ἐπικατάρατος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: epikataratos
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-kat-ar'-at-os)
Short Definition: accursed
Definition: on whom a curse has been invoked, accursed, doomed to destruction.
^^^^^^^
if these are sheep in error
they will hear Gods call
repent from their false gospel
and come to the true gospel of Christ
if these functioning as wolves
stay wolves and deny the true gospel
they are cursed "accursed"
again
incase you missed it
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
_____________________
(exactly why i will no longer discuss with llh.... it will not be fruitful if you examine his words you see lies, manipulation and straw man tactics)
N
maybe i was too harsh?
please... you dont have to call me "your honor"....
we have both fallen short of His glory and are just men
lets start fresh
and take it 1 verse at a time if you want to have an honest discussion
romans 10 and context vvvvvv
____________________
Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
______________________
paul is saying it is his hearts desire and in his prayers that israel might be saved.... he has first hand seen (once being a pharisee who believed his own righteousness would save him as opposed to Christ's) their efforts to do Gods will but they lack knowledge
they are self righteous seeking to establish themself by their works according to the law and not the righteousness of Jesus who salvation is truely gained by
_________________
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
___________________
now we live by the word of faith
dont go around judging whos going to heaven or hell according to the law
know that by faith we are saved
____________________
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
______________________
if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth on Jesus name you will be saved.... no matter who you are
what you did
and where youre from
and do not be ashamed (for we have all fallen short)
_________________
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
______________________
heres what you asked 10-14
how would anyone believe the word of faith if they not heard?
faith comes by hearing
.......
do you not agree with this?
why would you even ask this?
no out of context verses and random spamming please
please... you dont have to call me "your honor"....
we have both fallen short of His glory and are just men
lets start fresh
and take it 1 verse at a time if you want to have an honest discussion
romans 10 and context vvvvvv
____________________
Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
______________________
paul is saying it is his hearts desire and in his prayers that israel might be saved.... he has first hand seen (once being a pharisee who believed his own righteousness would save him as opposed to Christ's) their efforts to do Gods will but they lack knowledge
they are self righteous seeking to establish themself by their works according to the law and not the righteousness of Jesus who salvation is truely gained by
_________________
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
___________________
now we live by the word of faith
dont go around judging whos going to heaven or hell according to the law
know that by faith we are saved
____________________
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
______________________
if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth on Jesus name you will be saved.... no matter who you are
what you did
and where youre from
and do not be ashamed (for we have all fallen short)
_________________
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
______________________
heres what you asked 10-14
how would anyone believe the word of faith if they not heard?
faith comes by hearing
.......
do you not agree with this?
why would you even ask this?
no out of context verses and random spamming please
i am willing to try again to have an honest and civil discussion
i will not divert away from the subject matter at hand
and i will speak openly and directly about the verses and contexts of them and base our beliefs on scriptute
and not understanding
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4:7
Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10
We are called to know what love is, to die to ourselves, and live to Jesus, to walk in His
ways, to be people of the light, to shine in our good works so much people give glory to
God.
Now unfortunately you may want to avoid these aspects of Jesus, but as you appear to
be doing so, you cannot know Him. This is not like an exam, where the pass mark is 50%
it is do you know Jesus or not, are you walking in His ways and listening to Him in your
heart? What makes us who we are is crucial to how we behave, and our hearts drive
everything.
In many ways we all agree in part these points, but when you see God, it is so bright the
temptation is to walk away. Christ calls us on, Amen.
My friend, you say I lied, I have no clue what you are talking about, yet you believe you
know you can judge me as sinning but not say what this sin is worth of Hell. And unfortunately
as much as you judge me, so will you be judged, for I do not judge you, but just ask you to
look at Gods word and talk to the Lord with an open heart, letting the Holy Spirit minister to
you Jesus and His truth, Amen.
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4:7
Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10
We are called to know what love is, to die to ourselves, and live to Jesus, to walk in His
ways, to be people of the light, to shine in our good works so much people give glory to
God.
Now unfortunately you may want to avoid these aspects of Jesus, but as you appear to
be doing so, you cannot know Him. This is not like an exam, where the pass mark is 50%
it is do you know Jesus or not, are you walking in His ways and listening to Him in your
heart? What makes us who we are is crucial to how we behave, and our hearts drive
everything.
In many ways we all agree in part these points, but when you see God, it is so bright the
temptation is to walk away. Christ calls us on, Amen.
My friend, you say I lied, I have no clue what you are talking about, yet you believe you
know you can judge me as sinning but not say what this sin is worth of Hell. And unfortunately
as much as you judge me, so will you be judged, for I do not judge you, but just ask you to
look at Gods word and talk to the Lord with an open heart, letting the Holy Spirit minister to
you Jesus and His truth, Amen.
I have to be amused. Saying "i am willing to try again to have an honest and civil discussion"
while accusing someone of lying and being dishonest, is actually doing the opposite.
The points I am making members cannot answer so all they can do is raise these off points,
like they mean anything.
Yesterday I saw something, that is always there, but came to me highlighted.
Jesus points to the Father and does all the Father taught Him. The Father points to Jesus
saying we should listen to Him. The Holy Spirit points to Jesus and teaches us what we should
do. And I point to Gods word and His holiness and Gods overwhelming power that changes us
from the inside out.
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:16-19
Jesus God became man and died for us, and knows if we let that love grow in
our hearts we too will be able to die for others so that they might know the
meaning of what Gods love truly is. Amen
while accusing someone of lying and being dishonest, is actually doing the opposite.
The points I am making members cannot answer so all they can do is raise these off points,
like they mean anything.
Yesterday I saw something, that is always there, but came to me highlighted.
Jesus points to the Father and does all the Father taught Him. The Father points to Jesus
saying we should listen to Him. The Holy Spirit points to Jesus and teaches us what we should
do. And I point to Gods word and His holiness and Gods overwhelming power that changes us
from the inside out.
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:16-19
Jesus God became man and died for us, and knows if we let that love grow in
our hearts we too will be able to die for others so that they might know the
meaning of what Gods love truly is. Amen
N
scroll up
i will not continue to talk to someone who cant be honest
elamor may seem confused
and sometimes angry
but i get that
this is very important
and some of us feel very strongly
but you show no attempts at being honest
so we cannot have a fruitful discussion
i have tried more than once to speak with you
you are unwilling...
ill occasionally peek at your messages to see if maybe you have turned a 180 and can speak without the twisting of words
manipulation
straw men
and false accusations
I want to put things into perspective for you church folk, who grew up in protected nice
families who showed you love and care all your lives, who you hold now as hypocrites and
evil.
These are the evil people, who truly will be condemned on the last day,
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Ephesians 5:5
Those who hold lawlessness is the way of believers, are just lost in darkness,
and know nothing of the light and of Jesus. Jesus has always been about
reality and purity within. The crazy thing is when people say I need to sort
out my heart and stop being a hypocrite, while actually saying they are hypocrites
and so am I, so I am lying about purity and cleansing.
But this is exactly what Paul face in crete.
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1:15
We cannot avoid these issues. As sinners we always compromise and desire to
stay as we are rather than work things through as we are called to do.
families who showed you love and care all your lives, who you hold now as hypocrites and
evil.
These are the evil people, who truly will be condemned on the last day,
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Ephesians 5:5
Those who hold lawlessness is the way of believers, are just lost in darkness,
and know nothing of the light and of Jesus. Jesus has always been about
reality and purity within. The crazy thing is when people say I need to sort
out my heart and stop being a hypocrite, while actually saying they are hypocrites
and so am I, so I am lying about purity and cleansing.
But this is exactly what Paul face in crete.
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Titus 1:15
We cannot avoid these issues. As sinners we always compromise and desire to
stay as we are rather than work things through as we are called to do.
The problem you have is you want to only see things from your perspective, and if
I bring another perspective, it makes things look differently.
But what if the perspective I am bringing is the truth, and you are just deluded?
Equally I can be deluded and you speaking the truth.
Putting forward worked examples are to illustrate a point clearly and work it through.
Disliking the illustration because of its consequences is not answering it.
The fact you seem to dislike the illustrations I bring so much, suggests to me, you
cannot work the consequences through, so your foundations are not very solid.
Jesus used parables for this reason. They show something deeper than just holding
to an idea or an approach.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double--edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
Gods word takes no prisoners. It is a mirror that shows our true selves and puts
the question what are we going to do about it?
I ask this about myself as much as anyone, and am only a servant of the Lord my
King. Grace and peace to you
On this accusation of not being honest. What are you talking about?
I am not saying I do not have struggles and have not sinned in the past.
I am not saying I am perfect or have arrived at where Jesus would like me to be.
I am saying we are called to live a Holy life, and not be impure.
How is this not being honest and not following Jesus?
I bring another perspective, it makes things look differently.
But what if the perspective I am bringing is the truth, and you are just deluded?
Equally I can be deluded and you speaking the truth.
Putting forward worked examples are to illustrate a point clearly and work it through.
Disliking the illustration because of its consequences is not answering it.
The fact you seem to dislike the illustrations I bring so much, suggests to me, you
cannot work the consequences through, so your foundations are not very solid.
Jesus used parables for this reason. They show something deeper than just holding
to an idea or an approach.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double--edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
Gods word takes no prisoners. It is a mirror that shows our true selves and puts
the question what are we going to do about it?
I ask this about myself as much as anyone, and am only a servant of the Lord my
King. Grace and peace to you
On this accusation of not being honest. What are you talking about?
I am not saying I do not have struggles and have not sinned in the past.
I am not saying I am perfect or have arrived at where Jesus would like me to be.
I am saying we are called to live a Holy life, and not be impure.
How is this not being honest and not following Jesus?
Last edited: