Matthew Chapter 24 ; Thoughts?
- Thread starter MatthewG
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Here are the answers to your questions, again:
The cross-referencing and comparing of scripture, which I've given you over and over again, is what tells me that the gathering of the church cannot take place at the end of the age. Why? because God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which means that the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
This age, is from the beginning of man's creation to this present day. The end of the age is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Regarding this, we have Nebuchadnezzar's statue which represents the age of human kingdoms/governments, with that ten-toed kingdom being last. The Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace, which is figurative for the dismantling of all human government. Then it states that, the Rock/Jesus becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which is symbolic representing the Lord's millennial kingdom.
I agree with you that Satan is the prince of this world, for now. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority of the earth that was theirs, went to Satan - Luke 4:5-6. I never said that it was "the age of Jesus" so I don't know where you got from.
This is where we disagree. The result of the seventh trumpet, is Satan and his angels finally being thrown out of heaven, which is part of the process of the authority of the earth reverting back to God and mankind. That process will be completed after Satan's is released from the Abyss and leads his last rebellion, where he will then be thrown into the lake of fire.
No! The end of the age is clearly revealed in scripture when Jesus returns to the earth after the completion of God's wrath and his establishment of His millennial kingdom. See below:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
The end of the age spoken of here when the angels/harvesters gather first gather the weeds, then the wheat, is the same event as Matt.24:30-31, when Jesus returns to the earth and ends the age and his angels go out and gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Matt.24:15 represents the middle of the seven years, with Matt.24:29-31 representing the end of the seven years, which is the end of the age. It is the end of man's government and the beginning of the Lord's.
Satan is bound in the Abyss during the entire time of Christ's millennial kingdom, which takes place immediately after God's wrath and when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. The new heaven and new earth do not show up until after the great white throne judgment, which is after the millennium.
Reality check! The people on earth will still be in their mortal bodies with their sinful natures. I don't know where you get the idea that there will be no sin on the earth. As proof of this, at the end of the millennial period, Satan is released from the Abyss and deceives a large number of people on the earth referred to as Gog and Magog and they turn against God. I'd call that sin.
The cross-referencing and comparing of scripture, which I've given you over and over again, is what tells me that the gathering of the church cannot take place at the end of the age. Why? because God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which means that the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
This age, is from the beginning of man's creation to this present day. The end of the age is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
Regarding this, we have Nebuchadnezzar's statue which represents the age of human kingdoms/governments, with that ten-toed kingdom being last. The Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace, which is figurative for the dismantling of all human government. Then it states that, the Rock/Jesus becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which is symbolic representing the Lord's millennial kingdom.
I agree with you that Satan is the prince of this world, for now. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority of the earth that was theirs, went to Satan - Luke 4:5-6. I never said that it was "the age of Jesus" so I don't know where you got from.
This is where we disagree. The result of the seventh trumpet, is Satan and his angels finally being thrown out of heaven, which is part of the process of the authority of the earth reverting back to God and mankind. That process will be completed after Satan's is released from the Abyss and leads his last rebellion, where he will then be thrown into the lake of fire.
No! The end of the age is clearly revealed in scripture when Jesus returns to the earth after the completion of God's wrath and his establishment of His millennial kingdom. See below:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
The end of the age spoken of here when the angels/harvesters gather first gather the weeds, then the wheat, is the same event as Matt.24:30-31, when Jesus returns to the earth and ends the age and his angels go out and gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Matt.24:15 represents the middle of the seven years, with Matt.24:29-31 representing the end of the seven years, which is the end of the age. It is the end of man's government and the beginning of the Lord's.
Satan is bound in the Abyss during the entire time of Christ's millennial kingdom, which takes place immediately after God's wrath and when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. The new heaven and new earth do not show up until after the great white throne judgment, which is after the millennium.
Reality check! The people on earth will still be in their mortal bodies with their sinful natures. I don't know where you get the idea that there will be no sin on the earth. As proof of this, at the end of the millennial period, Satan is released from the Abyss and deceives a large number of people on the earth referred to as Gog and Magog and they turn against God. I'd call that sin.
So let me understand your logic. i ask you to show me Scriptures, and you do not show even one Scripture, and then you say that you have answered me. Really? you say you have given them to me over and over again, well then it should be easy for you to reveal one of the many posts where you have shown me those Scriptures then right? Over and over again you say you have given me those verses, therefore they should be easy to find for you to point to me the post # where you have given me those verses, we shall see.
But the Truth of the matter is i asked you to show me SCRIPTURES, and again, you have NOT done so, You say you will answer me AGAIN, but again, you don't give me any Scriptures. And even now i am asking you to show me those Scriptures, and you will NOT do so, nor can you show anywhere where you have done so. So then let us get the TRUTH here, you have NOT answered my question have you?
So i ask for Scriptures, and you give me this above. THAT is why i keep on saying the answer you give me are NOT Scriptures but your opinions, your interpretations. Again, i will ask you, because you have never answered me, Show me the verses that you have cross referenced and the such, that led you to believe what you are saying, should not be a very difficult thing to do, but i am still not getting any Scriptures from you. Why? OH, because you are tired of giving them to me again and again, right. sigh .... ...
i agree with this 100%, The problem is YOU think that His millennial kingdom starts AFTER the thousand years millennial period on Earth, correct? Do you not think that Jesus comes a second time, gathers the Church, then there is a millennial period where satan is bound, then Christ comes back a third time to establish yet another millennial period, right? Is that not what you believe and teach? If i am wrong say so.
Scriptures in several different places plainly reveals that thinking is wrong. Rev 20:1-5 plainly teaches that satan is bound a thousand years, and we reign with Christ for a thousand years. Scriptures teach we reign with Christ ON EARTH.
Again, the problem is YOUR timing of when this is suppose to happen. Do you not believe that Jesus will come a 3rd time and at that time is going to set up His kingdom? What you are not understanding is that when Jesus that little rock destroys all the kingdoms of the World is done at the 7th Trumpet sounding, EXACTLY as it plainly says. Yes it is at that very time that Jesus sets up His kingdom. The problem is you think that Jesus does that at the end of the millennial Period when satan is bound, and sets up another millennial kingdom After that first thousand years has expired.
when Jesus comes back a second time to gather up the Church. He is here to stay. It is at that time all the Kingdom of this world now belong to Him. it is at that time His reign starts ON EARTH, it is at that time that the 1,000 year millennial Period starts, which coincides with satan being bound for a thousand years. When satan is bound for a thousand years he is no longer god of this planet? Why? Because God is here. All Kingdoms of the Earth now belong to the King HERE on Earth, He is the KING of Kings of the Earth. He and us start to reign over the entire Earth HERE on this planet.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
i never said you said "the age of Jesus" i am the one plainly saying that statement above. The Age of Jesus starts after the end of this age of man, ends. my point is that the end of this age, ends when there are no more sinners present. You think that the end of this age ends when? At the end of thousand years of satan being bound, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, is that not correct? Scriptures does NOT teach that. You think that for some reason. In Truth, no more sinners are present at the very beginning of the thousand years that satan is bound. The end of the age starts BEFORE the millennial period, but you say is after. i continually ask you to reveal those verses that you cross-reference and what have you that leads you to believe that the end of age is when you say it is, but you have not done this, even though you say you have again and again.
Does everyone else see what i mean. IN all the descriptions concerning the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation, there is absolutely NOTHING about this being a result of satan and his angels finally being thrown out of Heaven. Can they be thrown out of Heaven more than once? Really? What happens during the 7th Trumpet should be what Scriptures plainly teaches is going to happen at the 7th Trumpet, but what do you do, you ADD things to the 7th Trumpet that are not there, what you add is your opinions, your interpretations of what YOU think MUST happen in order for everything to fit into what YOU believe is the TRUTH.
Clearly revealed in Scriptures, really? You say, that Jesus Returns to the Earth AFTER the completions of God's wrath. Lets see if the reference you refer to, Clearly reveals that it is AFTER that. You say that Jesus returns to the Earth AFTER the Millennial Period. Lets see if the reference you refer to, Clearly reveals that it is AFTER that. This is going to be interesting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
The end of the age spoken of here when the angels/harvesters gather first gather the weeds, then the wheat, is the same event as Matt.24:30-31, when Jesus returns to the earth and ends the age and his angels go out and gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Matt.24:15 represents the middle of the seven years, with Matt.24:29-31 representing the end of the seven years, which is the end of the age. It is the end of man's government and the beginning of the Lord's.[/quote]
Brother none of what you say above clearly reveals that all this happens AFTER the wrath of God, that is what YOU say. Scriptures does not teach that. What part of the Scriptures above reveals anything concerning the Wrath of God? What? Nothing in all of what you say above in reference clearly shows anything about the wrath of God. Yet you use this parable to justify that Jesus Returns AFTER the wrath of God and then claim that Scriptures clearly teach that, which it does NOT teach that. That parable says nothing about the Wrath of God.
You use the above parable to back up your belief that Jesus comes back AFTER the millennial Period, and again, there is not one thing in the whole parable that teaches anything at all about the millennial Period.
Is anybody else getting this? You say that Scriptures CLEARLY reveal that Jesus comes back AFTER His Wrath, and then give a parable that has nothing to do with His Wrath, whether it is Before, during, or after. Then you say that Scriptures CLEARLY reveal that Jesus comes Back AFTER the millennial Period, and then give reference to a parable that says NOTHING about the millennial Period at all. But in your mind this parable convinces you that Jesus comes back AFTER His Wrath, and AFTER the millennial Period, which that parable does not CLEARLY say at all. You have interpreted the Bible as you seen fit, you have this Truth in your head, and when you read Scriptures you are adding things into Scriptures to fit what you think the Truth is.
We have witnessed you believing something, and then saying this parable is why i believe that something, and that parable no more clearly shows that something to be True at all. But in your own head it does prove it.
Here is a TRUTH. You say that Jesus comes back After His Wrath, and the parable you use to back that up says absolutely NOTHING about His Wrath. You say that Jesus comes back After the millennial Period, and the parable you use to back that up says absolutely NOTHING about the Millennial Period. This is the TRUTH. and everyone can plainly see that TRUTH.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
You quote this, but cut out why this list was presented, strange, why did you do that? Here is what i said.
Now it seems you are contradicting your self. Do you not believe and teach that Jesus comes back a third time to set up His millennial Kingdom, like you have plainly said in previous posts? Yet now we see you saying above, that He sets up His millennial Kingdom during the entire time that satan is bound? So which do you believe? He either sets up His Kingdom during the same time satan is bound for that thousand years, or He sets up His Kingdom AFTER the thousand years satan bound, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. BOTH can't be correct.
What you say above is indeed correct. Therefore Christ does not set up His Kingdom AFTER the millennial Period as you have been saying. If Christ's millennial Kingdom is during the thousand years that satan is bound then His Kingdom was set up prior to satan being bound. Which is the TRUTH that is at the 7th Trumpet sounding, is when Jesus gets all the Kingdoms of the world, and it is at that time that Jesus is King of all kings, and it is a that time that Jesus is separating the tares from the wheat, And all those tares shall be burned in the furnace after the Great White Throne Judgment that will cast them there.
Really? You see i think that is in your own head, but if you think Scriptures plainly reveal that the New Heaven and New Earth do not show up until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, i would very much like to see any verse that teaches that, or even implies that thing. Show me the verses that you cross-reference to together that leads you to believe that. Or is that something that you believe to be TRUE in your own head, and will answer to me, i have answered you many times, but i will answer you again, and then DO NOT give me any Scriptures which i am asking for, but again written down your opinions and your interpretations why you believe the New Heaven and New Earth happen AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. (yeah, past experience says you will)
Please quote what i have said, so i know what you are referring to. But i think you are referring to me having said something about the 144,000 humans being on Earth during the Millennial Period. And these humans will NOT sin. Know you not that if satan is bound in the abyss, it is impossible to commit sin? If satan and demons are not present to tempt a person to commit sin, how will a person commit sin. The 144,000 humans will not even know what sin is, because they will never have been tempted to commit sin. The 144,000 won't even know what it means to lie, it just won't be done. So even though they are humans on the Earth, will not be subject to the sin nature, when the sin nature has been taken out of the way, that being satan and his followers can't touch anyone at all, nor tempt anyone at all. The 144,000 are the first fruits of Jesus Christ, humans that are redeemed from the Earth, protected from the Wrath of God during the 7 year Tribulation Period, they are HOLY, they are Righteous, they do not know what sin is, nor what it even means to be tempted to do something wrong. Is that what you are referring to, if not then quote what i have said that you are responding to. Thanks.
When satan and his demons are released, because they are the only ones bound for that thousand years, they will go and gather all the dead souls from around the world, those spirits that were not taken up in the Rapture and sleeping for a thousand years, they will rise from the ground, and gain bones, muscle and skin, these will be like unto ZOMBIES as we see them in movies today. Satan and the demons will deceive them into believing if they overtake the Holy City they will be free from death forever and ever. So satan and the demons go to the four corners of the Earth gathers up all the dead souls to fight against the Holy City Jerusalem, to try to overtake it and escape this planet. The only nations that satan and his angels deceive are those dead nations that satan raises from the dead, and there will be trillions upon trillions that will come against the Jesus and us Saints to gain the Holy City.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
Now it seems you are contradicting your self. Do you not believe and teach that Jesus comes back a third time to set up His millennial Kingdom, like you have plainly said in previous posts? Yet now we see you saying above, that He sets up His millennial Kingdom during the entire time that satan is bound? So which do you believe? He either sets up His Kingdom during the same time satan is bound for that thousand years, or He sets up His Kingdom AFTER the thousand years satan bound, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. BOTH can't be correct.
What you say above is indeed correct. Therefore Christ does not set up His Kingdom AFTER the millennial Period as you have been saying. If Christ's millennial Kingdom is during the thousand years that satan is bound then His Kingdom was set up prior to satan being bound. Which is the TRUTH that is at the 7th Trumpet sounding, is when Jesus gets all the Kingdoms of the world, and it is at that time that Jesus is King of all kings, and it is a that time that Jesus is separating the tares from the wheat, And all those tares shall be burned in the furnace after the Great White Throne Judgment that will cast them there.
Really? You see i think that is in your own head, but if you think Scriptures plainly reveal that the New Heaven and New Earth do not show up until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, i would very much like to see any verse that teaches that, or even implies that thing. Show me the verses that you cross-reference to together that leads you to believe that. Or is that something that you believe to be TRUE in your own head, and will answer to me, i have answered you many times, but i will answer you again, and then DO NOT give me any Scriptures which i am asking for, but again written down your opinions and your interpretations why you believe the New Heaven and New Earth happen AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. (yeah, past experience says you will)
Please quote what i have said, so i know what you are referring to. But i think you are referring to me having said something about the 144,000 humans being on Earth during the Millennial Period. And these humans will NOT sin. Know you not that if satan is bound in the abyss, it is impossible to commit sin? If satan and demons are not present to tempt a person to commit sin, how will a person commit sin. The 144,000 humans will not even know what sin is, because they will never have been tempted to commit sin. The 144,000 won't even know what it means to lie, it just won't be done. So even though they are humans on the Earth, will not be subject to the sin nature, when the sin nature has been taken out of the way, that being satan and his followers can't touch anyone at all, nor tempt anyone at all. The 144,000 are the first fruits of Jesus Christ, humans that are redeemed from the Earth, protected from the Wrath of God during the 7 year Tribulation Period, they are HOLY, they are Righteous, they do not know what sin is, nor what it even means to be tempted to do something wrong. Is that what you are referring to, if not then quote what i have said that you are responding to. Thanks.
When satan and his demons are released, because they are the only ones bound for that thousand years, they will go and gather all the dead souls from around the world, those spirits that were not taken up in the Rapture and sleeping for a thousand years, they will rise from the ground, and gain bones, muscle and skin, these will be like unto ZOMBIES as we see them in movies today. Satan and the demons will deceive them into believing if they overtake the Holy City they will be free from death forever and ever. So satan and the demons go to the four corners of the Earth gathers up all the dead souls to fight against the Holy City Jerusalem, to try to overtake it and escape this planet. The only nations that satan and his angels deceive are those dead nations that satan raises from the dead, and there will be trillions upon trillions that will come against the Jesus and us Saints to gain the Holy City.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
The birth pains are coming closer and closer (chaos has increased)! The Church age is coming to the end. Have extra Oil in your lamps! On November 29, 1947 and May 14, 1948 Israel became a Nation. The Fig Tree leaves have sprouted and the summer is near. America has recognize Jerusalem as Israel Capital. (2 Chronicles 6:6)
Will the "Great Tribulation" happen immediately after the Rapture of the Church? It could or there may be a gap (days - or months - or - years).
The shooting in Florida reveals this to the body of Christ. Seven plus ten equals seventeen (17 died).
The shooting in Florida reveals this to the body of Christ. Seven plus ten equals seventeen (17 died).
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (7)
[SUP]
36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[SUP]
37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (10)
7+10=17
Isaiah 57:1-2 New Living Translation (NLT)
[SUP]
36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[SUP]
37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (10)
7+10=17
Isaiah 57:1-2 New Living Translation (NLT)
57 Good people pass away;
the godly often die before their time.
But no one seems to care or wonder why.
No one seems to understand
that God is protecting them from the evil to come.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For those who follow godly paths
will rest in peace when they die.
the godly often die before their time.
But no one seems to care or wonder why.
No one seems to understand
that God is protecting them from the evil to come.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For those who follow godly paths
will rest in peace when they die.
Last edited:
Here is the answer, again:
The cross-referencing and comparing of scripture, which I've given you over and over again, is what tells me that the gathering of the church cannot take place at the end of the age. Why? because God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which means that the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Since you have to be reminded, here are the scriptures that proclaim that the church cannot be here for God's wrath. Therefore, please read them and stop saying that I don't provide scripture. What is really happening is that you ignore what I am saying.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9
"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. - Rev.3:10
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9
Now then, there are the scriptures that declare that the church cannot go through the time of God's wrath. Please do not tell me again that I did not provide scriptures.
Now read this carefully! Because the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that scripture teaches that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that scripture states that Jesus will keep us out of the coming wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to said wrath.
Therefore, since the wrath of the God takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then we must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath.
Church gathered -------- God's wrath ------- End of the age
Are you keeping the scriptures in mind that I provided for you above? Apply those, understanding that the end of the age takes place after God's wrath. Therefore, for the church to be gathered when Christ returns to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Do you understand this or do I have to list all of the seals, trumpets and bowl scriptures?
It's a simple deduction of understanding the timing of God's wrath and understanding that the church cannot go through that wrath. Put those two together and apply them. The underlying principle is that, since God's wrath was poured out on Jesus, satisfying it completely and fully for every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer in Christ. Do you understand this concept? For the church to go through God's wrath would be like a double payment.
The believer has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God:
"The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. - Rom.4:23-24
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. - 2 Cor.5:17-19
Originally Posted by Ahwatukee
Why? because God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which means that the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Yes, because you are unable to put two and two together.
Now before you make your accusation, I am not going to list all of the scriptures for the events of wrath listed through chapters 6 thru 18. So don't use this to tell me that I did not provide scripture. You are going to have read through those chapters yourself.
The gathering of the church:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 must take place prior to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
God's wrath:
In Revelation chapter 6 thru 18, God's wrath is poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the plagues of the two witnesses.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age (second coming):
Revelation 19:11-21 is a detailed account of Jesus returning to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Matt.24:29-31
The Millennial Kingdom:
The millennial kingdom is represented by Revelation 20:1-7
Great White Throne Judgment:
Takes place after the millennial period and is represented by Rev.20:11-15
Eternity - New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem:
The new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven after the end of the millennial period and after the great white throne judgment. Yet, according to you diagram, you have the new Jerusalem appearing on this present earth right in the middle of the seven years and during God's wrath and before Christ returns to end the age. Yet, the chronological order of scripture is just as I listed above.
Incorrect! Never said that and never would say that! In fact, what you have said above makes no sense at all. How could the millennial kingdom start after the millennial period on earth? There is only one millennial kingdom and it begins when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
* Gathering of the church
* Revealing of the antichrist/Seven years of God's wrath
* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age
* Millennial kingdom (literal thousand years)
* Great white throne judgment
* Eternity - New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
The chronological order above is what I have always believed and taught. So, I don't know where you got that confusing information above from.
I completely agree with the above, i.e. that when Christ returns to the earth to end the age (second coming) as described in Rev.19:11-21, that Satan is then bound in the Abyss for a literal thousand years, which is the same thousand years of Christ's millennial kingdom. And that we, the resurrected church, will be ruling with Christ on this present earth during the Lord's millennial kingdom according to Rev.2:26-27
I honestly don't know where you are getting this information from! Jesus is going to descend to the ATMOSPHERE ONLY to gather the church, taking us back to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us according to his promise in John 14:1-3. To be clear, Jesus does not return to the earth when he gathers the church. Scripture states that he only meets us in the air. Therefore, Jesus is only returning to the earth one time, which is after God's wrath has been completed, where at which time he will establish his millennial kingdom.
So, you have the millennial kingdom being set up right in the middle of the seven years, right in the middle of God's wrath. Do you understand that after the seven trumpets there are still seven bowl judgments that must take place? Jesus will not return to the earth until God's wrath has been completed.
This is exactly why your chronological time-line is all screwed up and that because your theory depends on Jesus returning at the 7th trumpet, which is definitely false! For after the 7th trumpet, the seven bowls must be poured out, with Jesus returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath.
The scripture states that "the kingdoms have now become the kingdoms of our Lord." And the reason for this is that, the 7th trumpet is when Satan and his angels are finally cast out of heaven. It is part of the process of the authority of the kingdoms of the world reverting back from Satan to God and mankind. For when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the garden, the authority of the world and its kingdoms went to Satan, as is revealed from the following:
"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.” - Luke 4:5
And as I have told you before, the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath, where the "last trumpet" is a blessing to the church. There is nothing in or around the 7th trumpet that says anything about the church being gathered nor are they even mentioned in the narrative. The last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3.
Never said the above nor do I believe it. As I said, Jesus returns to the earth after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath. At that time is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and is when he establishes his millennial kingdom. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is how God is going to dismantle all human government.
The gathering of the church = the church is resurrected, and the living in Christ changed and caught up and will meet Christ in the air only. Where he will take the entire church back to the Father's house. - 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53
The Second Coming = Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and the church will be with him, where at which time he will establish his millennial kingdom. - Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, Rev.19:11-21
Millennial Period = Established after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
Great white throne = The resurrection of all the unrighteous dead throughout all of history
New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem = Takes place after the great white throne judgment
The cross-referencing and comparing of scripture, which I've given you over and over again, is what tells me that the gathering of the church cannot take place at the end of the age. Why? because God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which means that the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Since you have to be reminded, here are the scriptures that proclaim that the church cannot be here for God's wrath. Therefore, please read them and stop saying that I don't provide scripture. What is really happening is that you ignore what I am saying.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9
"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. - Rev.3:10
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9
Now then, there are the scriptures that declare that the church cannot go through the time of God's wrath. Please do not tell me again that I did not provide scriptures.
Now read this carefully! Because the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that scripture teaches that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that scripture states that Jesus will keep us out of the coming wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to said wrath.
Therefore, since the wrath of the God takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then we must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath.
Church gathered -------- God's wrath ------- End of the age
Are you keeping the scriptures in mind that I provided for you above? Apply those, understanding that the end of the age takes place after God's wrath. Therefore, for the church to be gathered when Christ returns to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Do you understand this or do I have to list all of the seals, trumpets and bowl scriptures?
It's a simple deduction of understanding the timing of God's wrath and understanding that the church cannot go through that wrath. Put those two together and apply them. The underlying principle is that, since God's wrath was poured out on Jesus, satisfying it completely and fully for every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer in Christ. Do you understand this concept? For the church to go through God's wrath would be like a double payment.
The believer has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God:
"The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. - Rom.4:23-24
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. - 2 Cor.5:17-19
Now before you make your accusation, I am not going to list all of the scriptures for the events of wrath listed through chapters 6 thru 18. So don't use this to tell me that I did not provide scripture. You are going to have read through those chapters yourself.
The gathering of the church:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 must take place prior to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
God's wrath:
In Revelation chapter 6 thru 18, God's wrath is poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the plagues of the two witnesses.
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age (second coming):
Revelation 19:11-21 is a detailed account of Jesus returning to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Matt.24:29-31
The Millennial Kingdom:
The millennial kingdom is represented by Revelation 20:1-7
Great White Throne Judgment:
Takes place after the millennial period and is represented by Rev.20:11-15
Eternity - New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem:
The new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven after the end of the millennial period and after the great white throne judgment. Yet, according to you diagram, you have the new Jerusalem appearing on this present earth right in the middle of the seven years and during God's wrath and before Christ returns to end the age. Yet, the chronological order of scripture is just as I listed above.
Incorrect! Never said that and never would say that! In fact, what you have said above makes no sense at all. How could the millennial kingdom start after the millennial period on earth? There is only one millennial kingdom and it begins when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
* Gathering of the church
* Revealing of the antichrist/Seven years of God's wrath
* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age
* Millennial kingdom (literal thousand years)
* Great white throne judgment
* Eternity - New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem
The chronological order above is what I have always believed and taught. So, I don't know where you got that confusing information above from.
I completely agree with the above, i.e. that when Christ returns to the earth to end the age (second coming) as described in Rev.19:11-21, that Satan is then bound in the Abyss for a literal thousand years, which is the same thousand years of Christ's millennial kingdom. And that we, the resurrected church, will be ruling with Christ on this present earth during the Lord's millennial kingdom according to Rev.2:26-27
I honestly don't know where you are getting this information from! Jesus is going to descend to the ATMOSPHERE ONLY to gather the church, taking us back to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us according to his promise in John 14:1-3. To be clear, Jesus does not return to the earth when he gathers the church. Scripture states that he only meets us in the air. Therefore, Jesus is only returning to the earth one time, which is after God's wrath has been completed, where at which time he will establish his millennial kingdom.
So, you have the millennial kingdom being set up right in the middle of the seven years, right in the middle of God's wrath. Do you understand that after the seven trumpets there are still seven bowl judgments that must take place? Jesus will not return to the earth until God's wrath has been completed.
This is exactly why your chronological time-line is all screwed up and that because your theory depends on Jesus returning at the 7th trumpet, which is definitely false! For after the 7th trumpet, the seven bowls must be poured out, with Jesus returning shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath.
The scripture states that "the kingdoms have now become the kingdoms of our Lord." And the reason for this is that, the 7th trumpet is when Satan and his angels are finally cast out of heaven. It is part of the process of the authority of the kingdoms of the world reverting back from Satan to God and mankind. For when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the garden, the authority of the world and its kingdoms went to Satan, as is revealed from the following:
"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.” - Luke 4:5
And as I have told you before, the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath, where the "last trumpet" is a blessing to the church. There is nothing in or around the 7th trumpet that says anything about the church being gathered nor are they even mentioned in the narrative. The last time the church is mentioned is at the very end of chapter 3.
Never said the above nor do I believe it. As I said, Jesus returns to the earth after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath. At that time is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and is when he establishes his millennial kingdom. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is how God is going to dismantle all human government.
The gathering of the church = the church is resurrected, and the living in Christ changed and caught up and will meet Christ in the air only. Where he will take the entire church back to the Father's house. - 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53
The Second Coming = Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and the church will be with him, where at which time he will establish his millennial kingdom. - Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, Rev.19:11-21
Millennial Period = Established after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
Great white throne = The resurrection of all the unrighteous dead throughout all of history
New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem = Takes place after the great white throne judgment
Last edited:
Greetings Message,
The great tribulation is identified by the Lord in Matt.24:15-22, as beginning when the abomination is set up in the temple, which according to Dan.9:27 is in the middle of the seven years. From the time that the abomination is set up until Christ returns to the earth to end the age will be 3 1/2 years. Therefore, since the seven years is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, the church will be gathered prior to the seven year period, with the great tribulation beginning in the middle of that last seven years.
* Church gathered
* Seven years established
* Abomination set up in the middle of the seven years
* Christ returns 3 1/2 years after the abomination has been set up
The great tribulation is identified by the Lord in Matt.24:15-22, as beginning when the abomination is set up in the temple, which according to Dan.9:27 is in the middle of the seven years. From the time that the abomination is set up until Christ returns to the earth to end the age will be 3 1/2 years. Therefore, since the seven years is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, the church will be gathered prior to the seven year period, with the great tribulation beginning in the middle of that last seven years.
* Church gathered
* Seven years established
* Abomination set up in the middle of the seven years
* Christ returns 3 1/2 years after the abomination has been set up
Since there is no scriptural information regarding there being a gap in between the time that the church is gathered and the beginning of the seven years, it would just be assumption on anyone's part. However, I think that the gathering of the church, where millions of people are removed from the earth would be a perfect time for the revealing of the antichrist and his establishing if that seven years. I've always entertained the idea that after the church has been gathered, that the antichrist would be revealed and would offer his explanation as to what happened to us, an unfavorable one of course.
If there is a gap, I don't believe that it would be to big of one. Who knows! All scripture does says is that "the day of the Lord" which is the wrath of God, will not come until apostasy takes place and the man of lawlessness is revealed. How much time there is between the time we are gathered until the antichrist is revealed is anyone's guess. Once the church is gone and the Holy Spirit is no longer restraining the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed, this earth is going to get really, really bad, to say the least.
If there is a gap, I don't believe that it would be to big of one. Who knows! All scripture does says is that "the day of the Lord" which is the wrath of God, will not come until apostasy takes place and the man of lawlessness is revealed. How much time there is between the time we are gathered until the antichrist is revealed is anyone's guess. Once the church is gone and the Holy Spirit is no longer restraining the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed, this earth is going to get really, really bad, to say the least.
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (The Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. "
So the order is as follows:
* The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him
* Rebellion occurs
* Man of lawlessness is revealed
* The Day of the Lord
The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him and the day of the Lord take place in close succession to each other, with the church being gathered first, then the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The confusion is that people make the gathering of the church and the day of the Lord as being the same event, which they are not. The day of the Lord is the time of God's wrath. The gathering of the church takes place with the day of the Lord following.
The church will be gathered before the antichrist is revealed.
Last edited:
Good morning AW...
And in fact if you do use the NIV that was interpreted in 1978 it is an interpretation that shows the gathering prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. If someone was preterit they would use one of the interpretations that word these same things in favor of their position on it's order. And again someone else would use another interpretation that best agrees with how they see those events unfolding.
Thats the very reason I think there are the many different versions of the bible today in that if someone believes they are to be raptured prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the MoS. Now then it would be the opposite to someone who believed that the apostasy and the revealing of the MoS they would use a different text rendering like this which shows the order opposite of the NIV's order, 2 Thessalonians 2 Interlinear Bible
As the scripture states, the end of the sixty nine sevens were completed when the Messiah was crucified. That last seven years will resume after the church has been gathered, where God will pick up right where he left off with Israel, fulfilling that last seven years in conjunction with the end of the age.
It's not a matter of translations, but a matter of recognizing that there is a difference between "the appearing of our Lord and our being gather to him vs. The day of the Lord." These are two different events which take place in close proximity to each other. First the gathering of the church, then the Day of the Lord. Paul starts off with our being gathered to him and then refers to the day of the Lord which follows, which is God's wrath which follows the gathering.
The church will be gone before the antichrist is revealed. The church through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what is restraining him from being revealed. It is not until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, and the church with him, that the man of lawlessness is revealed.
The church will be gone before the antichrist is revealed. The church through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what is restraining him from being revealed. It is not until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, and the church with him, that the man of lawlessness is revealed.
Last edited: