NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

[3Scoreand10]

Here's the biggest problem with your theory:

Great tribulation saints = All killed during the great tribulation

The wicked = All killed at the return of Christ for worshiping the beast and receiving his mark.

So according to what you are claiming, there would be no wicked going into the millennial kingdom because they will all be killed and therefore will not enter into the millennial kingdom.

Then you say that, there will be no saints/righteous to enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies.

So if the wicked are all killed when Christ returns and all of the saints are changed into their immortal and glorified bodies, then there would be no one at all to enter the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, because they will ether be dead or in their immortal and glorified bodies.

I never said nor do I believe all tribulation saints are killed. I said many would be alive and will be changed.
I never said all the wicked would be killed.
The only ones who will certainly enter the millennial in the flesh is Israel.
During the millennial many will be born. The earth will be repopulated. Some will be saved, some will not.
No different than it has ever been. Some saved, some not.

 

[followjesus]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

understand that revelation is a spiritual vision. consider the great multitude along with this

ephesians 1 ( revelation 5) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

ephesians 2 " But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

revelation is about things that were soon to be. but its a spiritual vision, the church is in Christ, and Christ is at Gods right Hand, before the throne. because Gods spirit is the Holy spirit, and Jesus was Fathered by the Holy spirit, and Jesus gives us the Holy spirit. what that is shopwing is our presence spiritually even Now, who believe in Jesus Christ that is the worlds church from the beginning of the gospel to Now all who came to God through Jesus. the reason they are holding palm branches, is that they accepted the Gospel of the Kingdom. its a prophecy for when the King is revealed, seen in the Gospel.

remember John is called " up here" after the door in Heaven is opened, He is in the Heavenly places paul is talking about where we are together with Jesus in spirit, as He is together with us on earth wherever we are. we are One with Jesus by spirit is the message. that was a promise He made to His disciples that they who believed would be called the children of God. and we serve God 24 7 in His temple which is our body.

1 corinthians 6 " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

Gods presence is with us, as we are with Him.

 

[Katy-follower]

The foolish asked the wise for oil,or an impartation ov what they had abundance of.
The Holy Spirit is transferrable. Salvation is not.
Yet another reason we can see the foolish are in fact saved born again believers.

Folks,if doctrine trips up a simple parable,change churches

Jesus says to the foolish "I do not know you," which as I said earlier matches up with the judgment day scripture, where He addresses a religious group that are not saved. To me, those words can't be overlooked. Why would He emphasize this? How can we change the meaning of those words "I do not know you... I never knew you"? It's clear they were never His.

I was going to add that it's clear salvation is not transferable. You're either born of God or you're lost. Those born of the Spirit are eternally sealed (the King's seal, which no-one can revoke) ~ Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

As I said, the door to the Ark will some point close; Jesus being the door. Many will miss that opportunity to be saved as they left it too late. And the church should treat this with great urgency.

I like how the parables all seem to start with "the Kingdom of Heaven is like..." and notice there are always two opposing sides presented, representing believers and non believers.... the wheat and tares, sheep and goats, the narrow and broad road, the good and bad trees, and in this case (as I see it) the wise and foolish virgins. While the others speak of the world as a whole, the virgins seem to specifically address people within the church congregation, which is also made up of true believers and those who profess to be christians but inwardly have not yet been transformed.

Those who don't believe in eternal security may claim the foolish virgins are saved and lose their salvation.. or may believe the partial rapture theory, but for me, Jesus' words are very clear "I do not know you".

 

[Katy-follower]

Jesus says to the foolish "I do not know you," which as I said earlier matches up with the judgment day scripture, where He addresses a religious group that are not saved. To me, those words can't be overlooked. Why would He emphasize this? How can we change the meaning of those words "I do not know you... I never knew you"? It's clear they were never His.

I was going to add that it's clear salvation is not transferable. You're either born of God or you're lost. Those born of the Spirit are eternally sealed (the King's seal, which no-one can revoke) ~ Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

As I said, the door to the Ark will some point close; Jesus being the door. Many will miss that opportunity to be saved as they left it too late. And the church should treat this with great urgency.

I like how the parables all seem to start with "the Kingdom of Heaven is like..." and notice there are always two opposing sides presented, representing believers and non believers.... the wheat and tares, sheep and goats, the narrow and broad road, the good and bad trees, and in this case (as I see it) the wise and foolish virgins. While the others speak of the world as a whole, the virgins seem to specifically address people within the church congregation, which is also made up of true believers and those who profess to be christians but inwardly have not yet been transformed.

Those who don't believe in eternal security may claim the foolish virgins are saved and lose their salvation.. or may believe the partial rapture theory, but for me, Jesus' words are very clear "I do not know you".

I recall somewhere in scripture there was someone who was trying to buy the Holy Spirit... he wanted the gifts, and was rebuked by one of the disciples. Maybe someone can help me out. Simon? Stephen? Not related to this parable, but just came to mind now...

 

[Magenta]

I recall somewhere in scripture there was someone who was trying to buy the Holy Spirit... he wanted the gifts, and was rebuked by one of the disciples. Maybe someone can help me out. Simon? Stephen? Not related to this parable, but just came to mind now...

Acts 8, Simon the sorcerer (Magus).

 

[Bladerunner]

HAHHAHAHAH replacement NOT HARDLY PAL.....amazing you guys cannot read....

JESUS said the LAW and the PROPHETS were UNTIL JOHN....take it up with him
PAUL said their is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK IN CHRIST, but a NEW CREATION......TAKE IT UP WITH HIM AND JESUS who inspired him......

Yes, sir,,,,"John The Baptist"

It is replacement theology any way you put it........

 

[Bladerunner]

No Saints will enter the millennial in the flesh.
You may choose to not believe that, but that is how it is.
But you choose to not believe many truths about the end times.

The New Covenant that Jesus makes with Israel will remove all their sins yet they will be in the Millennium in their mortal bodies. They will be the rulers over Israel. Those in Israel at this time will only be Gentiles as in the rest of the World. Those in the rest of the world will by unbelieving gentiles who have some how not taken the mark of the beast. Evidently all nations will be represented?

 

[Nehemiah6]

PAUL said their is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK IN CHRIST, but a NEW CREATION......TAKE IT UP WITH HIM AND JESUS who inspired him......

Paul also has three chapters on Israel in Romans (9-11) and Paul also says this (Rom 11:26,27)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:26, 27)

Looks like Paul got the last laugh at Replacment Theology.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No Saints will enter the millennial in the flesh.

Unless you define "in the flesh" that statement is meaningless. The saints who enter into the Millennium will be regenerated and "in the Spirit" -- not in the flesh. But they will have human bodies, and will not be disembodied spirits (if that's what your're getting at).

 

[Ahwatukee]

The only ones who will certainly enter the millennial in the flesh is Israel.

And the above was what I was responding to. Those Gentiles, the great tribulation saints, will not all be killed. Many will be killed, but there will also be those who endure until Christ returns to the earth to end that age. These will also enter into the millennial period with Israel. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to have the sheep and goat judgment, because according to you, there would be no sheep to judge. Nor would there be any nations to beat there swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks. Also, in the parable of the wheat and the weeds, there would be no wheat for angels to gather if they all died during that time period.

Israel and the surviving great tribulation saints (Gentiles), will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth during that time.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, sir,,,,"John The Baptist"

It is replacement theology any way you put it........

You need to lay off the juice.....or start paying attention.....your accusation is unfounded....and my scriptural quotes VALID......

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul also has three chapters on Israel in Romans (9-11) and Paul also says this (Rom 11:26,27)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:26, 27)

Looks like Paul got the last laugh at Replacment Theology.

SO WHAT....I do not believe nor push replacement theology....so what is your point.....do you and your pal blabebummer deny that the Gentiles are being grafted in? Do you deny that in Christ there is NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE but a new CREATION......IF you do...both of you need to get right and embrace the truth.....

 

[valiant]

Paul also has three chapters on Israel in Romans (9-11) and Paul also says this (Rom 11:26,27)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:26, 27)

Looks like Paul got the last laugh at Replacment Theology.

but what did he mean by 'all Israel'. Many believe that IS what you call replacement theology.

 

[dcontroversal]

but what did he mean by 'all Israel'. Many believe that IS what you call replacement theology.

This whole site is going mad.....quote two verses and get accused of something you have never said or implied.....it is as if everybody is on the juice or most do not read a thing and just go off on some idiotic tangent....what about the following two verses blares replacement theology.........??

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

HAHHAHAHAH replacement NOT HARDLY PAL.....amazing you guys cannot read....

JESUS said the LAW and the PROPHETS were UNTIL JOHN....take it up with him

PAUL said their is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK IN CHRIST, but a NEW CREATION......TAKE IT UP WITH HIM AND JESUS who inspired him......

 

[iamsoandso]

The first thing the AC does is establish that seven year covenant, which will allow Israel to build their long awaited temple. In Dan.9:27, it states that in the middle of the seven years, he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease, which tells us that sacrifices and offerings will be going on during the first 3 1/2 years, which means that the AC will not yet have proclaimed himself to be God during that time. It is not until the middle of the seven years, that he stops their sacrifices and offerings and sets up that abomination, which causes them to flee out into the desert to that place God will have prepared for them and where they will remain until Jesus returns at the end of that last 3 1/2 years to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

If the AC proclaimed himself to be God at the beginning of the seven years, then Israel would not be able to build their temple to sacrifice to God during the first 3 1/2 years.

Beginning of the seven = AC makes a seven year covenant with Israel and worship God during the first 3 1/2 years

Middle of the seven = AC stops the sacrifices and sets up the abomination and at some point stands in the temple proclaiming to be God. the abomination causes Israel to flee out into the desert for 1260 days (3 1/2 years)

End of the seven = Seventh bowl is poured out and Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

I suppose it possible it could just be me and that I might not fully understand the way you see these events unfolding. It I think is important to look closely at these things from the different points of view as to their fulfillments and why the wrath of God is sent forth. So please take no offense in me as if I am critical of fine points(I mean no offense) but there are a few things from your former post that I don't understand clearly.

One is my original question from Post #360 as to what they had done/do that would cause God to send tribulation/wrath on the earth in the first place. That is if the man of sin and his image are not to be set up until the latter of the 3.5 years and then so those who would receive his mark and worship his image are not found in the earth worshiping his image until the final 3.5 years then this offense has not yet occurred and so it would not make sense that God would begin his wrath until after they worship it and commit the offense(take the mark,worship the image ect.)...

I am also confused as to the timing of the coming of the Lord at the end of the last portion of the 7 years(last 3.5 years end) in that if the first resurrection of the dead (1 Tess.4:15-17) as you state here in your fist paragraph occurs at that time. This I think would be post tribulation and not pre tribulation resurrection and rapture? The confusing part to me in it is that the Lord does not return until there is a great falling away and the man of sin revealed. So the man of sin would I think be prior to the Lords return and he also would have set up his image and those who worshiped/worship it and then the Lord returns and his wrath is poured out on those who received the mark and worshiped his image.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello iamsoandso,

I think is important to look closely at these things from the different points of view as to their fulfillments and why the wrath of God is sent forth.

I have been studying end-time events for quite some time, and I live in the book of Revelation. It is because I have and do look closely at these things as the reason why I am confident about what I am claiming. If I did not look closely at these things, then I would have no right to make any claims regarding them and in fact would not be proclaiming anything. I do not contend for these truths for my own glory, but because I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word.

One is my original question from Post #360 as to what they had done/do that would cause God to send tribulation/wrath on the earth in the first place.

Here is why the wrath of God, the Day of Lord, is going to take place and who it is going to take place against:

"See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it."

"See, the day of the Lord is coming -a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.


The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold, rarer than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of His burning anger. - Isa.13:9-13

"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 1Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft. - Rev.9:20-21

And the following is what the result of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is going to be:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” declares the Lord. “I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.” “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”

That is if the man of sin and his image are not to be set up until the latter of the 3.5 years and then so those who would receive his mark and worship his image are not found in the earth worshiping his image until the final 3.5 years then this offense has not yet occurred and so it would not make sense that God would begin his wrath until after they worship it and commit the offense(take the mark,worship the image ect.)...

That would be true if the worship of the beast, his image and receiving his mark was the only reason that God is pouring out his wrath. But as you can see from the scriptures that I provided above, His wrath will be against the haughty, the proud, the arrogant, the works of their hands, that they would not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, wood, murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft, etc., etc.

I am also confused as to the timing of the coming of the Lord at the end of the last portion of the 7 years(last 3.5 years end) in that if the first resurrection of the dead (1 Tess.4:15-17) as you state here in your fist paragraph occurs at that time.

I think that you need to go back and read that, because I did not say, nor have I ever taught that the resurrection of the church takes place at the end of the seven years. It in fact takes place prior to the beginning of the seven years. After that, the antichrist is revealed where he establishes that seven year agreement with Israel. There is also a resurrection of the great tribulation saints after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. This group is not the church, but will be those who receive Christ after the church has been gathered known as the great tribulation saints.

You are confusing 1 Thes.4:13-18 with Rev.20:4-6, the former being the gathering of the church and the latter one being the resurrection of the great tribulation saints. Both of these belong to the first resurrection.

 

[iamsoandso]

Hello Valleyofdecision,



The church world-wide is immune from the GT, and that because the GT is God's tribulation, His time of wrath. And since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and Jesus said that he would rescue us from God's wrath, then we must be removed prior the first seal being opened, which is what initiates God's wrath.



One of the major errors regarding end-time events, is expositors not recognizing the difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would encounter vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath.

Since the on-set of the church until now, believers have been suffering those trials and tribulations. Once the church has been gathered, then God's wrath will be in operation, and that is what the church is not to suffer. There will however be those who come to Christ after the gathering of the church who will be exposed to God's wrath and this because they will have become believers after the gathering of the church.

It is quite possible that I miss read your meaning as to the timing of the return of the Lord and the events that follow if so I meant no offense. Do you see that the Lord returns and the dead in Christ are raised and those who are caught up as his return and then he goes to heaven and then returns again after his wrath to set up the Mill. kingdom? And it is good I think that you study in the scriptures as you say but to one man 30 or 40 years is a long time but to another it is a little while.

 

[heartofdavid]

Jesus says to the foolish "I do not know you," which as I said earlier matches up with the judgment day scripture, where He addresses a religious group that are not saved. To me, those words can't be overlooked. Why would He emphasize this? How can we change the meaning of those words "I do not know you... I never knew you"? It's clear they were never His.

I was going to add that it's clear salvation is not transferable. You're either born of God or you're lost. Those born of the Spirit are eternally sealed (the King's seal, which no-one can revoke) ~ Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

As I said, the door to the Ark will some point close; Jesus being the door. Many will miss that opportunity to be saved as they left it too late. And the church should treat this with great urgency.

I like how the parables all seem to start with "the Kingdom of Heaven is like..." and notice there are always two opposing sides presented, representing believers and non believers.... the wheat and tares, sheep and goats, the narrow and broad road, the good and bad trees, and in this case (as I see it) the wise and foolish virgins. While the others speak of the world as a whole, the virgins seem to specifically address people within the church congregation, which is also made up of true believers and those who profess to be christians but inwardly have not yet been transformed.

Those who don't believe in eternal security may claim the foolish virgins are saved and lose their salvation.. or may believe the partial rapture theory, but for me, Jesus' words are very clear "I do not know you".

Jesus called peter satan.and JTB elijah.
We can all see that peter is not satan and john the baptist is not elijah.

It also said mary had not KNOWN a man when pregnant.
We can all see it wasn't that she had no male acquaintances.

It meant INTIMACY WITH.

....kinda like the foolish virgins

 

[heartofdavid]

It is quite possible that I miss read your meaning as to the timing of the return of the Lord and the events that follow if so I meant no offense. Do you see that the Lord returns and the dead in Christ are raised and those who are caught up as his return and then he goes to heaven and then returns again after his wrath to set up the Mill. kingdom? And it is good I think that you study in the scriptures as you say but to one man 30 or 40 years is a long time but to another it is a little while.

I hope my mind is as sharp as yours when i am 83

 

[iamsoandso]

I hope my mind is as sharp as yours when i am 83

lol, I hope it's better than mine I find mine own self scratching my head and wondering if I am mistaking things or needing to wash my glasses.