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The main problem with your position is that you take verses and apply your own interpretation to them proclaiming them to be the only possible way to understand them. If you take the tribulation period as a whole you find that the visions John sees get progressively worse from the worlds point of view. When the Antichrist appears at the start he portrayshimself as the Messiah and mimics the person of Christ offering Israel a seven year peace agreement which he breaks half way through. After this point he declares himself as God. Global worshof him begins along with a full scale campaign of persecution of Israel and Christian believers. John sees two visions one of Martyers under the throne and another of a numberless crowd of believers coming out of the tribulation.
According to you Gods wrath falls at the start of the tribulation. This doesnt conform to the detals given in Revelation.
The only way you can make it fit is for what Christ calls he birth pains in Matthew 24 to be lumped together with the day of the Lord.
Exodus gives us a preview of the last days. God allowed the Hebrews to remain in Egypt throughout all the plagues that
he sent on the Egyptians. His full wrath fell on Pharaoh and his army when they drowned in the dead sea allowing the Hebrews to escape. Its no coincidence either that Noah's generation drowned in a flood, or that the heavens parted
and the Holy spirit was seen as a Dove Jesus baptism. As the Scripture says ''He will come in clouds and every eye shall see him and those who persecuted him'' Come Lord Jesus!
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Good morning,,,
Not that I am disagreeing but to clarify something in the way you worded "global worship of him begins along with full scale campaign of persecution of Israel and Christian believers" are you saying this is the way he(AW) See's this or you?
H
heartofdavid
Guest
It is the words of Jesus.
The immediate audience inclusion is a partial truth.
Mat 24 has " the end of the world" dynamic as well as "one taken,one left" ( the rapture)
There is no " one taken,one left historically or prophetically exclusive to the Jew.
.....which is mat 25 the gathering of the bride where one is taken,one is left. Only 3 or 4 verses later does Jesus say "watch and pray "
The book of Revelation is written from the perspective of last day the end of the world, judgement day for the unbeliever, the second resurrection for all who do have the Spirit of Christ as new creatures. The Lord’s day is the last day, the day of the final trump as the voice of God calls all men to receive the promise of the new bodies .Those asleep the first resurrection and those reigning with Christ on earth.The second and final
Because the whole book is signified, using parables to reveal the spiritual understanding. With the Amil position no literal (thousand years) works the best. God does not give specific numbers when it comes to creating new creatures.that have nothing to do with Jew or gentile, male nor female .
Signified again the spiritual understanding hid from natural man.who insist on walking by sight after the letter as that written and not the unseen the Spirit that works in the believer.
The book of Revelation is written from the perspective of last day the end of the world, judgement day for the unbeliever, the second resurrection for all who do have the Spirit of Christ as new creatures. The Lord’s day is the last day the day of the final trump as the voice of God calls all men to receive the promise of the new bodies .those asleep the first resurrection and those reigning with Christ on earth.The second and final
Because the whole book is signified, using parables to reveal the spiritual understanding with the Amil position no literal (thousand years) works the best. God does not give specific numbers when it comes to creating new creatures.when David tried to number it brought a plague.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, (the last day) and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,(the last trump) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:10
It’s the end of the world, the last day or the Lord’s day, the great day of his wrath is come. Once the stars fall the new creation will appear. The heaven have departed as a scroll.The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:13
The great day of his wrath is come, The great tribulation in respect to a number no man could number is signified the word one hundred and forty four thousand .This is of all nations, to include the Jewish nation and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Because the whole book is signified, using parables to reveal the spiritual understanding. With the Amil position no literal (thousand years) works the best. God does not give specific numbers when it comes to creating new creatures.that have nothing to do with Jew or gentile, male nor female .
Signified again the spiritual understanding hid from natural man.who insist on walking by sight after the letter as that written and not the unseen the Spirit that works in the believer.
The book of Revelation is written from the perspective of last day the end of the world, judgement day for the unbeliever, the second resurrection for all who do have the Spirit of Christ as new creatures. The Lord’s day is the last day the day of the final trump as the voice of God calls all men to receive the promise of the new bodies .those asleep the first resurrection and those reigning with Christ on earth.The second and final
Because the whole book is signified, using parables to reveal the spiritual understanding with the Amil position no literal (thousand years) works the best. God does not give specific numbers when it comes to creating new creatures.when David tried to number it brought a plague.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, (the last day) and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,(the last trump) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:10
It’s the end of the world, the last day or the Lord’s day, the great day of his wrath is come. Once the stars fall the new creation will appear. The heaven have departed as a scroll.The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:13
The great day of his wrath is come, The great tribulation in respect to a number no man could number is signified the word one hundred and forty four thousand .This is of all nations, to include the Jewish nation and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
H
heartofdavid
Guest
H
heartofdavid
Guest
Amen
And we echo back to heaven," we love you too Lord Jesus,come quickly. The Spirit and the bride say come"
The Apostles tell us what God thinks. Not what they think as if we could have the faith that comes from hearing God in respect to sinners. That would blaspheme the Holy name by which we are called heavenward.
When you say manipulate does that mean doing the good pleasure of another will? Does not God command us to do His will as he works in us ?
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H
heartofdavid
Guest
H
heartofdavid
Guest
I think the AC is friendly to israel at first . even peace and a temple with the Jews in awe of his methods
I'll say why I ask it as to who is persecuted in this tribulation. It is a sad thing to point out from history the holocaust during ww2 where 6-9 million died after being badged as "Jew", every life is precious. There is though something to be pointed out in it that would pertain to Matthew 24:9, Revelation 6:10-11 and Revelation 7:13-14.
Why I say this is that in Matthew 24:9 Jesus states that these things would happen and that the ones who would be afflicted,killed,hated ect. would have this time come upon them "for my names sake". In Revelation(verses I gave), both the ones who are told to wait and the others who go through the tribulation are "Christians"(white in the blood of the Lamb).
Now in ad66-70 there were those who were Christians and believed in Jesus as Christ. Also there were those in Israel who did not believe that Jesus was the Christ. Those who died in the siege of Jerusalem died but not for Jesus name's sake(Matthew 24:9) and so are not the ones who die,are afflicted,hated for "My name's sake" from verse 9,they are the Christians.
In ww2 the 6-9 million who died were also Jewish by faith and it could not be said that they died for "my names sake" and be in agreement with Matthew 24:9's wording "my name's sake" only those who believe Jesus is Christ and testify in his name could fulfill this statement.
Now there's two groups of Christians who could fulfill the verse and die,be hated and afflicted like Jesus said. One of the groups are being told to wait until the other's come and the fist resurrection and the catching up takes place when the Lord returns after the tribulation. The first ones ask how long until their blood is avenged and so are killed and not the ones who are "caught up"and the other's are the ones who go through the tribulation in Revelation 7:13-14 and so they also are not the ones "caught up"either.
Well of course he will keep the new creatures from the final judgment the last day. The tribulation is not about those who have eternal life having passed from the dead to new spirit life . There is no condemnation in Christ
Jesus.
If they were not part of that great tribulation (the last day) then in effect they have washed their robes. The ones that stood in judgement where judged
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The ones that did not come out of the great tribulation they are the ones that were judged. Again no condemnation for those in Christ . Christ has already sat in the judgement seat and was declared guilty as he poured out His Spirit in jeopardy of His own Spirit.
There will not be two trials for the believer (double jeopardy).
I would offer. The time of reformation had come .The use of an outward Jew in respect to that seen has come to a end, and not an inward, born again Jew, as that not seen, or a Christian the new name God named his people .
The Jews that faced that terrible persecution of the Germans it has nothing to do with the gospel.
The shadows used in those parables using the Jews for a temporal time period had come to an end the shadows became substance the veil is rent... restoring the government of God to another time period before the Jew had an outward person to represent Him not seen.
Today, as it has been for over two thousand years we know no man after the flesh.even though some did n know the Son of man now and forever we know him no more as that seen.God is not a man as us .He remains our invisible God.
Many Jews remain at a wall with a few bricks that they use in idol worship in a dead hope Christ will come in the flesh.
The veil is rent we walk by the unseen spiritual, not that seen the literal.
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until "the time of reformation". Heb 9:8
The above speaks multitudes concerning your understanding.....and it is not good....
Under the NEW Covenant their is neither JEW nor GENTILE a they have been folded in under one banner.....JESUS is addressing HIS CHURCH in all the accounts...NOT the JEWS....the ONLY application of Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 unto the JEWS is found in MATTHEW, that being the part about the destruction of the temple and the scriptures applicable unto Jerusalem and it being razed by the Romans.....
HE is SPEAKING to HIS DISCIPLES<---the 1st NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.......and regardless.....ALL three are clear...AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.....the ELECT will be gathered from....
A. The uttermost part of the earth
B. From one end of heaven unto the other
C. BY THE ANGELS of GOD
and before you make the same statement the other one did.....
The parable of the wheat and tares HAS THE ANGELS gathering the WHEAT for JESUS into his BARN
and
It was an ANGELS that carried LAZARUS to PARADISE for JESUS
The gathering of the ELECT, by the ANGELS from ALL of HEAVEN and the UTTERMOST parts of the earth IS the resurrection/change.....................AFTER the TRIBULATION THAT HAS NOT BEEN SEEN NOR WILL EVER BE SEEN AGAIN....
Acts 3:19-21
There are a great many who see these things as carnal in that they see this as something that is to come upon this earth as something touchable and not as spiritual. It is also a misnomer in that if it is today seen as a touchable carnal thing and so they build fancy houses and say they are the temples of God or there are Jews today who still see to build a temple in Jerusalem and that it would be the temple they have not yet been removed by God. That is at the time the tent of David that is fallen is restored the beast and false prophet and the devil will have been removed. I suppose their presence in the earth still to this day speaks for it's self.
Nice try but no cigar.....and I can read and add 1 plus 1........keep FROM.......guard, protect from loss or HARM makes no sense if they are NOT HERE and you should take your own advice.....kind of like ignoring the ANNOUNCED WRATH of GOD in HEAVEN before the THRONE as BEING HERE at the 7th trump........and to the bolded.....in your pride you got that right.....
3
3Scoreand10
Guest
As concerning the virgins, It is not about morality, it is the fact that the five left had no oil. Nothing to produce light. No Holy Spirit dwelling within them. All ten virgins were equal on in the flesh, but 5 had oil (indwelling Holy Spirit) and 5 had no oil (indwelling Holy Spirit).
And for you to believe that a Just God will LEAVE BEHIND saints just because they do not believe in a pre-trib rapture is one of the most ridiculous thing you have said.
H
heartofdavid
Guest
No,they did have oil and light. They ran out.
So it is not salvation because they were virgins. ( pure and undefiled but no power or intimacy)
They were unmistakenly saved though
So it is not salvation because they were virgins. ( pure and undefiled but no power or intimacy)
They were unmistakenly saved though
3
3Scoreand10
Guest
Where does the Word say they ran out? It does not. It says they had no oil.
This is just another case of you and many others changing the Word of God so as to support your belief.
Read what it says.