Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Faith that is alone, having no works, is a person saying they have faith but has nothing to show for their faith. James himself defined 'faith alone' for us.


"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?"-James 2:14

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."-James 2:24


I'm posting this to show you he defines 'faith alone' as lip service. I'm not asking you to debate the other issues associated with that. The above verses prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'faith alone' is mere lip service.



I know you hear it that way. I'm completely aware of that.

It's all about faith. There is no fruit bearing outside of faith in Christ. That's why fruit bearing is the sign you are in Christ in salvation by faith. Fruitless branches are cut off and thrown into the fire. If fruitless branches somehow belonged to Christ they would be retained by Christ, not cast off.

In the end, fruitlessness shows you do not have faith in Christ. If you are a barren field when Jesus comes back you will be burned, not saved...

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."-Hebrews 6:8

On the other hand, if you have fruitful work, you have that which accompanies salvation. You show by your work that you are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. This is taught to us in the example of the Hebrew church...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them."-Hebrews 6:9-10


If any of you are barren and fruitless, fall on Jesus. He will make you ready for his return. That's why he came here first to warn us. He will give you salvation and the things that accompany salvation that make it certain that you are indeed saved and ready to meet him.

"We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."-Hebrews 6:11-12

You can post the verses in James a million times and it will not change the context that he is speaking of MEN being able to see the faith the FAITH that justifies before GOD without works.......no matter how many times you try to twist it to equate to a works based salvation it will never mean that....

Paul-->ROMANS-->faith alone justifies a MAN BEFORE GOD
JAMES-->JAMES-->THE ABOVE faith seen by men based upon our works

THE WORKS HAVE NOTHING to do with salvation....get that through your head!

 

[dcontroversal]

Look in the mirror. Do you see Jesus?

Sarah knew she possessed the promise of a son that would inherit the Land on her behalf by how that promised child was growing each day inside of her and pressing out from her inward parts. And so it is for the Christian. We know that we have the promises made to Abraham when we see Jesus, the promised Son, growing in us every day. People who can't see Jesus growing in them don't have the promises applied to them.

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you"-Galatians 4:19

Sarah also QUESTIONED GOD about having a son in her old age and gave HAGAR to ABRAHAM to help GOD.......the SIN resulted in ISHMAEL, the ARABS and ISLAM........a work of WOOD, HAY and STUBBLE

Imagine that..........

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You can post the verses in James a million times and it will not change the context that he is speaking of MEN being able to see the faith the FAITH that justifies before GOD without works.......no matter how many times you try to twist it to equate to a works based salvation it will never mean that....

Paul-->ROMANS-->faith alone justifies a MAN BEFORE GOD
JAMES-->JAMES-->THE ABOVE faith seen by men based upon our works

THE WORKS HAVE NOTHING to do with salvation....get that through your head!

yup

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.



Ezekiel 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.



James 4:8 - Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

1 Timothy 1:5 - Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


1 John 5:4
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[dcontroversal]

People here keep claiming we don't have to prove we are children of God. But Paul plainly said to prove we are children of God by not grumbling and complaining. That's the point I was addressing.

Works do matter. They show us to be children of God. And the Bible plainly tells us to do that.....show by our lives that we are children of God.

And what your narrow minded view cannot grasp is...

a. FAITH alone is what saves
b. The children of GOD can and do sometimes walk in disobedience and produce works NOT INDICATIVE of salvation and GOD CHASTENS them
c. The Children of GOD can and do have works of wood, hay and stubble as well as works of GOLD, silver and precious stones
d. WORKS do NOT SAVE, KEEP SAVED, HELP maintain salvation
e. SALVATION is a one off ETERNAL EVENT based entirely upon FAITH
f. YOUR whole premise of NOT being saved UNTIL GOD sees your works at the end is ignorant and totally blinded to the fact that any work produced is the result of the FAITH and SALVATION one already possesses in CHRIST....

NO MAN can produce anything UNLESS already placed INTO THE VINE

HOW DOES ONE GET PLACED INTO THE VINE IF NOT SAVED UNTIL THE END

explain that by your false dogma

 

[dcontroversal]

I am justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not my faith. My faith waivers. My faith cannot justify my salvation, only the faith of Christ. Christ's work on the cross justifies His faith. That's saving faith.

AMEN......................................................!

 

[dcontroversal]

How many works?

Let's say at Christmas time I give one dollar to the Salvation Army, and the next year I give two dollars, and the year after that - three. Is that enough of a progression to prove I'm a Christian - or must I become a missionary in Africa to satisfy?

(Third time I've asked this - gonna ignore it again, Ralph?)

He likes to ignore any and all proofs that contradict his café blend self saving dogma.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Definitions of Christian Bigotry:

Bigots Fear Change:
Christian Bigots hate change and see it as an attack on their beliefs. Since their Bible is inerrant and their God is unchanging, new ideas are dangerous and subversive to their perfect theology. Perfection cannot be improved upon, so any variation or contradiction is perceived as absurd. Bigots hate discovery, creativity is often prohibited, and new ideas are threatening to their way of life.

Bigots Are Often (But Not Always) Privileged:
Change is hard to accept when things are working in your favor. As the common expression goes: “Why change a good thing?” Any theology, idea or sermon that challenges people to sacrifice or reach beyond their comfort zones isn’t easily accepted.

Bigots defend their position so passionately because the greatest beneficiaries of their worldview are themselves. But when people are persecuted, abandoned, ignored or powerless, their perspective changes and becomes open to different paradigms. These new paradigms are invisible and seem illogical to those that live in comfort and authority.

Bigots Crave Power:
Bigots want control, and they view their faith as a war of attrition. They use battle terminology to describe the gospel and prefer to preach, yell and shout instead of listen, discuss and learn. They declare statements instead of asking questions and refuse to engage in meaningful dialogue.

They prefer political might over spiritual strength, legal enforcement over personal choice, conscription over evangelism, punishment over grace, fear over hope, and control over love. In extreme cases, even violence and aggression is viewed as a necessary means of gaining power.

The Future is Scary:
Christian Bigots believe that the Apocalypse is going to happen sooner rather than later—possibly tomorrow. They assume people are becoming more depraved every passing minute. The Gays, Liberals and Abortionists are ruining the world, and every single negative news event is proof that God is judging the world and that The End is near.

The Past was Beautiful:
Bigots lack humility, and they refuse to admit they were ever wrong. They forget—or refuse to admit—that many aspects of the past were worse than the present. Not only did Christians ruthlessly kill and torture in the name of God, but where was the Church when children were being molested, millions were being persecuted and killed, unfair taxes were bankrupting entire communities, and Christians consistently turned a blind eye to injustice, the poor, and those who were in desperate need of help?

These past sins of Christianity don’t exist for Bigots. Their words, actions and lives are skewed by a misguided sense of self-righteousness and virtue. They hold the moral high ground while everyone else is simply wrong.

Bigots are Exclusive:
Bigots have an Us vs. Them mentality and believe that only those who strictly agree with their beliefs can be true believers, the rest of humanity is being manipulated by Satan. If you question this line of reasoning you’ll quickly be labeled a “heretic” a word that Bigots love to attach to anyone challenging their thinking.

Bigots are Aggressive, Vengeful and Cruel:
Since Bigots self-righteously believe to be correct in all matters, they’re obnoxiously rude, mean and hurtful when communicating with others. Their self-perception as being morally superior creates an attitude of disdain for those they view as sinners, challengers and outsiders.

This post added zero value to this thread.............................as in nothing, nadda, zip, zilch.......

 

[dcontroversal]

This is why many Roman Catholics on their deathbed question their salvation because it's about works. Have I done enough works throughout my life? Am I going to heaven?

Bad, dangerous doctrine...

True story.....

One grandfather who was a truck driving drunk got cancer and through the efforts of my brother trusted JESUS as his savior....he had ZERO works for GOD and went to his death easy, happy, rejoicing and in peace.

Another grandfather who was a hyper religious charismatic group that emphasized works as part of the equation and a secret closet drunk and a particularly judgmental man pushed works his whole life just as those in this thread do....the exact same arguments and scriptures out of context...he got cancer and went to his grave denying eternal life based upon faith but rather pushed his works the whole way. He went out hard and on his death bed flailed about screaming that he was catching on fire and begging to be pulled from the fire.

The above is absolute truth.....both of them were grandfathers by marriage to my brother and I..............

P.S. The bolded above is not meant to point a finger at any particular group....just the facts.......

 

[star]

True story.....

One grandfather who was a truck driving drunk got cancer and through the efforts of my brother trusted JESUS as his savior....he had ZERO works for GOD and went to his death easy, happy, rejoicing and in peace.

Another grandfather who was a hyper religious charismatic group that emphasized works as part of the equation and a secret closet drunk and a particularly judgmental man pushed works his whole life just as those in this thread do....the exact same arguments and scriptures out of context...he got cancer and went to his grave denying eternal life based upon faith but rather pushed his works the whole way. He went out hard and on his death bed flailed about screaming that he was catching on fire and begging to be pulled from the fire.

The above is absolute truth.....both of them were grandfathers by marriage to my brother and I..............

P.S. The bolded above is not meant to point a finger at any particular group....just the facts.......

Wow, just wow

 

[Ralph-]

How many works?

Let's say at Christmas time I give one dollar to the Salvation Army, and the next year I give two dollars, and the year after that - three. Is that enough of a progression to prove I'm a Christian

The answer is whatever it takes to characterize you as a Spirit filled person. How does this characterize you as a born again person helping the church?

- or must I become a missionary in Africa to satisfy?

I don't know. What's your gift?



Now let's put the question to you. The question is not what's in debate here. The answer seems to be. So let's see how you answer the question as to what constitutes 'diligence' in this particular example, ministering to the saints...

"God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end"-Hebrews 6:10-11.


What do YOU say constitutes 'diligence' in fulfilling the above? How many deeds? How often? How do you answer the author? I said whatever characterizes you as being such. What do you say? You can either play your silly numbers game with yourself as you are trying to do with me, or you can just agree with what I said that it is being characterized by change that answers the question if one is born again or not.


And what about all these...

"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


Any change from before you claimed to be a believer that would characterize you as being changed and changing? Have you stopped looking at porn? What would be a change of behavior in that regard? No change at all? Give us some quantity as you are demanding from me.

 

[dcontroversal]

James defines the relationship of grace and works.

James 2 NIV

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

So what....works do not save, keep saved, embellish or top of the salvation one already possesses by faith........and we have all said they are the results of......not FOR.....and......the bible is clear....some produce, some do not, some produce both types of works and some are saved yet so as by fire because every work they had are crispy fried in the day of judgment......

none of the above changes the fact that it is faith alone that saves a man eternally

 

[dcontroversal]

peter

3Blessed*be*the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you

5*Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation* ready to be revealed in the last time.

amen

AMEN...kept by the power of GOD......their god must be a weak ineffectual loser if he cannot keep them saved by their initial act of faith......

 

[dcontroversal]

Wow, just wow

It s true....and on top of that I personally know preachers and pastors that minister in over two dozen states and 10 or so countries.....they all have death bed stories of both descriptions above........My friend Andy who died of cancer and pastored a church in Peoria, Illinois was in a coma like state and he always like Johnny Cash....they played a record for him and when the record finished he opened his eyes and looked at his wife and two daughters and smiled and said he loved them....then looked over in the corner, got a startled look which turned into a look of recognition with a big smile and he closed his eyes and went peacefully........

He believed in eternal security based upon faith..........

 

[Chester]

a. Greek verb tense shows a present continuing result from a past completed action<--was saved, am saved and continuing to be saved into the future.

b. Verbiage -->What does everlasting and eternal mean as applied unto the LIFE given as a GIFT in Christ....it does not say TEMPORARY or CONDITIONAL

c. I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee

d. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE of CHRIST

e. IN the FATHER's HAND, in the SON'S hand and SEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE unto the Day of REDEMPTION

f. BORN of INCORRUPTABLE SEED that DOES NOT SIN <--OUR SPIRIT-->ONCE a SON BY BIRTH ALWAYS A SON BY BIRTH

g. CONTEXT...there are NO VERSES IN CONTEXT that state a man can LOSE that which is ETERNAL

h. WE HAVE BEEN rendered INNOCENT (JUSTIFIED) by FAITH before GOD

I. WHILE WE WERE YET SINNING and SINNERS the righteousness of CHRIST has been IMPUTED BY FAITH

h. WHEN I SEE the blood I WILL PASS OVER YOU

I. JESUS SAID... I WILL LOSE NOTHING the FATHER has given me, but WILL RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY

j. JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our FAITH and he said HE WILL, "NOT MIGHT" FINISH the good work of FAITH HE BEGAN IN US

k. WHATSOEVER GOD DOES is EVERLASTING with NOTHING being ADDED nor TAKEN AWAY Ecclesiastes 3:14 <--INCLUDING SALVATION

l. WE HAVE BEEN sanctified (positionally) in CHRIST forever along with being saved, justified, sealed and sanctified

k. The word translated "IN" as applied to us being placed IN CHRIST <--study that word form the GREEK

L. ETC.....

For one to lose salvation....ALL of the above must fail, be denied, chunked or swept under the rug.......GOD MUST FAIL, JESUS MUST fail and NOT KEEP HIS WORD......the bible is replete with PROOF and the only way ONE can teach that we can lose salvation is to deny the above, and or take scripture out of context, misapply words and verbiage, and just flat twist the word so far out of context to say something that it does not say...........

Lots of wonderful Biblical promises to those who are believing in Christ! Praise the Lord!

 

[Chester]

It s true....and on top of that I personally know preachers and pastors that minister in over two dozen states and 10 or so countries.....they all have death bed stories of both descriptions above........My friend Andy who died of cancer and pastored a church in Peoria, Illinois was in a coma like state and he always like Johnny Cash....they played a record for him and when the record finished he opened his eyes and looked at his wife and two daughters and smiled and said he loved them....then looked over in the corner, got a startled look which turned into a look of recognition with a big smile and he closed his eyes and went peacefully........

He believed in eternal security based upon faith..........

And then there are those like my brother-in-law who at one time made a radical decision and confession of Christ as Saviour: his life, attitudes, and everything changed!

Now - he has rejected Christ - almost married a Hindu lady, and is an avowed atheist wanting nothing to do with God . . .

I wonder what will happen on his death bed?

 

[Ralph-]

Sarah also QUESTIONED GOD about having a son in her old age and gave HAGAR to ABRAHAM to help GOD.......the SIN resulted in ISHMAEL...

God did not reveal that the promised son would come through Sarah until later, after Ishmael was born.

"As for Saria; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son BY HER."-Genesis 17:15-16

Up until that point they did not know that Hagar was not the woman (the covenant) through which God would provide the promised son who would inherit the blessing on their behalf. Imagine that.

Then the three visitors told them that by this time next year she would have a son.

"I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."-Genesis 18:14


After she received that word from the Lord, God's promise was confirmed by the visible fact that the promised son was growing inside of her and showing himself in her.

That's how it is for the Christian. We have God's promise that we will be given a Son at the appointed time who would inherit the promises on our behalf. We know we have God's promise and that God is keeping that promise for us by the fact we can see the outward signs of the promised child growing inside of us. If that doesn't happen then you don't have the promise of a son coming from your own body who will inherit the promises of God for you.

 

[Ralph-]

Lots of wonderful Biblical promises to those who are believing in Christ! Praise the Lord!

Yes, those who are BELIEVING in the Lord. And we know if we are truly believing by if we are in process of birthing the Son in our bodies.

 

[dcontroversal]

And then there are those like my brother-in-law who at one time made a radical decision and confession of Christ as Saviour: his life, attitudes, and everything changed!

Now - he has rejected Christ - almost married a Hindu lady, and is an avowed atheist wanting nothing to do with God . . .

I wonder what will happen on his death bed?

Only the Lord knows........many believers, genuine believers sometimes have events in their lives at the result of their own decisions that harden their hearts to the extent of the above and or God drives them into the wilderness to teach tem a lesson....many miss the fact that even though Israel was made to wander in the wilderness because of their sin and rebellion God never left them or forsook them, he still led them, gave them a form of worship, made his presence known even though they paid the price physically <---chastisement.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

God did not reveal that the promised son would come through Sarah until later, after Ishmael was born.

"As for Saria; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son BY HER."-Genesis 17:15-16

Up until that point they did not know that Hagar was not the woman (the covenant) through which God would provide the promised son who would inherit the blessing on their behalf. Imagine that.

Then the three visitors told them that by this time next year she would have a son.

"I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."-Genesis 18:14


After she received that word from the Lord, God's promise was confirmed by the visible fact that the promised son was growing inside of her and showing himself in her.

That's how it is for the Christian. We have God's promise that we will be given a Son at the appointed time who would inherit the promises on our behalf. We know we have God's promise and that God is keeping that promise for us by the fact we can see the outward signs of the promised child growing inside of us. If that doesn't happen then you don't have the promise of a son coming from your own body who will inherit the promises of God for you.

You need to study a little bit more...........Sarah knew of the promised seed to come and is exactly why she gave Abraham Hagar.....wow.......you just cannot seem to get anything right from the word.....

 

[Rosemaryx]

And what your narrow minded view cannot grasp is...

a. FAITH alone is what saves
b. The children of GOD can and do sometimes walk in disobedience and produce works NOT INDICATIVE of salvation and GOD CHASTENS them
c. The Children of GOD can and do have works of wood, hay and stubble as well as works of GOLD, silver and precious stones
d. WORKS do NOT SAVE, KEEP SAVED, HELP maintain salvation
e. SALVATION is a one off ETERNAL EVENT based entirely upon FAITH
f. YOUR whole premise of NOT being saved UNTIL GOD sees your works at the end is ignorant and totally blinded to the fact that any work produced is the result of the FAITH and SALVATION one already possesses in CHRIST....

NO MAN can produce anything UNLESS already placed INTO THE VINE

HOW DOES ONE GET PLACED INTO THE VINE IF NOT SAVED UNTIL THE END

explain that by your false dogma

That is a really good point right there...How does one get placed into the vine if not saved until the end...

If this is the belief of some , then you some ( workers ) are not already on the Vine...That is scary...xox...