Not By Works

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mj007

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Yes because people have free will. They are not controlled by God. So if they reject God, how does God help them, when he can't? His glory can not be reached by them.

Ralph- said:
God really does give up on people who are persistent in rejecting him:


"the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."-2 Thessalonians 2:9-11


"Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions"-Romans 1:24-26



"And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart"-Exodus 9:12

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."-Romans 9:18
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stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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mj007 said:
So if someone has a really bad day after splitting up with his partner of 30 years or so, gets mad drunk, walks into a church and declares 'Jesus is the devil everyone, he ruined my life, he will ruin yours', you are saying that God doesn't have the empathy to understand that he was in a state of unbelief triggered by circumstances at which he lost control and lost himself?

The truth is, people struggle with empathy, and would easily condemn him to hell. But God wouldn't. But according to what you say, he would, like he is over-protective and unforgiving when it comes to people losing their mind and offending him, as if he is easily offended, like a person can be.

Or?
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I think you are talking about different circumstances than Dcon.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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ElAmor said:
Why do you always inject or put the law on the shoulders of those who were not even given the Law? Do you even look at the mirror first before you judge? Or do you even know what your sinful tongue is saying? Can't you keep a tight rein of your tongue(james 1:26)

The Jews received the Law and not the Gentiles. ( romans 9:4-5, ephesians 2:11-12 ) What if the Gentiles through their FAITH do what the Law requires, will you call them a Jew. A believer is given the power to do what the Lord Jesus has been doing ( john 14:12 ) through the HS He gave us. Did Jesus teach that Gentiles should not obey God's Laws?

Salvation is not by the Law but obedience to God is essential to our salvation. We do not save ourselves ( ephesians 2:8-9 ) but we are a part or a member of the body of the SAVIOR who keeps working to this very day and did not just die on the cross but resurrected and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father doing their WORKS.

Are you a part of that body who worships and serves the Lord?

New International Version 1984 Romans 13:11-14 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Revelation 3:2-3 wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
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Read the thread...maybe you can figure it out....doubtful though....
 
S

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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dcontroversal said:
It does boil down to a rejection of JESUS.....If I say Jesus is of the devil and not GOD then I a in a state of unbelief into the work of Christ...and If I will not acknowledge Christ as from God I cannot be forgiven.....NO difference than Thomas Paine who had two witnesses by his death bed to say he went to the ground denying that Jesus was the savior and could save him...he was unforgivable in that state....
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What about creating images of God/Jesus. Like murder and stealing, it is expressly forbidden to create, acknowledge, bow down to or worship any image of God/Jesus created in the likeness of anything, including man, fish, etc. I mean if a person creates an image, contrary to His Instructions, and places Jesus name on it. Is this a sin which needs to be repented of?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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mj007 said:
Well I still think this is an interpretation. Yes it makes sense, although to me, it is a choice of focus to make it just that one thing. To many Christians, Jesus is someone to be protected, his identity, and they would never forgive someone who rejects Jesus, or makes a mockery of Jesus. As to whether it is about this from God's perspective, I'm not sure, because that makes it a little narrow minded, as someone who doesn't forgive, is often narrow minded.

To blaspheme against the spirit has many interpretations, not just the one that sounds good to Christians where God hates what they hate. Because this very often happens in peoples minds, they interpret God according to themselves.
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Context supports my conclusion...

Pharisees did not believe in JESUS
Pharisees attributed his work to the power of the devil instead of the power of God by the H.S.
This = unbelief into JESUS
One who will not believe that Jesus is from God will not be able to be forgiven

To me that is the simplicity of the context boiled down.....anyway...peace
 
VCO

VCO

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Ralph- said:
I have been saying over and over to leave it out of the discussion because it is a distraction to the truth about the necessity to have a living faith or else you are not born again. People keep bringing it up as if it makes it so you can have no changed life and you are still saved. I keep reminding everyone that it doesn't matter. Dead faith can not save. Once saved always saved doesn't make it so dead faith saves. Dead faith means you are not born again. It doesn't matter if you were never born again or lost it. The point is you are not born again.
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NO ONE IS DOING THAT, ONLY YOU ARE FALSELY ACCUSING SAYING THAT.

You are the one that falsely tries to attach it to a continuing work of SALVATION, which is a False Statement. It CLEARLY is part of GOD's Love that the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts, Rom. 5:5, when you look at 1 John 3:14-18. If you would learn to phrase your Belief's properly, you would find many of us to be in Agreement with you.

We MUST continue to disagree with you, as LONG as YOU attach it as part of SALVATION.



Hebrews 4:3 (NCV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] We who have believed are able to enter and have God’s rest. As God has said, “I was angry and made a promise, ’They will never enter my rest.’ “ But God’s work was finished from the time he made the world.

John 17:2-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for You gave Him authority over all flesh; so He may give eternal life to all You have given Him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent—Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I have glorified You on the earth by completing the work You gave Me to do.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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ElAmor said:
Why do you always inject or put the law on the shoulders of those who were not even given the Law? Do you even look at the mirror first before you judge? Or do you even know what your sinful tongue is saying? Can't you keep a tight rein of your tongue(james 1:26)

The Jews received the Law and not the Gentiles. ( romans 9:4-5, ephesians 2:11-12 ) What if the Gentiles through their FAITH do what the Law requires, will you call them a Jew. A believer is given the power to do what the Lord Jesus has been doing ( john 14:12 ) through the HS He gave us. Did Jesus teach that Gentiles should not obey God's Laws?

Salvation is not by the Law but obedience to God is essential to our salvation. We do not save ourselves ( ephesians 2:8-9 ) but we are a part or a member of the body of the SAVIOR who keeps working to this very day and did not just die on the cross but resurrected and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father doing their WORKS.

Are you a part of that body who worships and serves the Lord?

New International Version 1984 Romans 13:11-14 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Revelation 3:2-3 wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
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I see nothing wrong in this post. Scripture does say put the Lord Jesus on...give nothing to feed the flesh or the human nature. This is done only through the Holy Spirit. Not law. It's not a suggestion either. God is giving us what is our right of inheritance, and we walk in Him. How? Through identification. Died with Him to sin, raised in righteousness in Him.

Key is His Presence. Seek to know and receive His Presence. El Amor may know written, and not experience. I don't know. But, we must go to experience what we have already within.

am done.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Studyman said:
What about creating images of God/Jesus. Like murder and stealing, it is expressly forbidden to create, acknowledge, bow down to or worship any image of God/Jesus created in the likeness of anything, including man, fish, etc. I mean if a person creates an image, contrary to His Instructions, and places Jesus name on it. Is this a sin which needs to be repented of?
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Apples and oranges....and I do not, nor have I ever had an image of JESUS on my wall....my view on Jesus is that he was not some good looking, flowing brown haired, blue eyed man like you see in the Catholic paintings......if anything he was probably one of the most base, weak looking average ordinary Jewish man.....there was nothing in him that would make us desire him according to scriptures.......and the law proves guilt....it does not exonerate anyone....for the record....I hate statues of JESUS, MARY, any SAINT and fully despise the paintings and pics of JESUS that make hi out like this good looking, brown haired blue eyed stud............not my Jesus
 
M

mj007

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What about when say, faith healers heal others in the name of Jesus, and have a high regard and belief in Jesus? Do you associate that with the devil or with Jesus?

dcontroversal said:
Context supports my conclusion...

Pharisees did not believe in JESUS
Pharisees attributed his work to the power of the devil instead of the power of God by the H.S.
This = unbelief into JESUS
One who will not believe that Jesus is from God will not be able to be forgiven

To me that is the simplicity of the context boiled down.....anyway...peace
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M

mj007

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Apparently this is more likely to be what Jesus looked like.



dcontroversal said:
Apples and oranges....and I do not, nor have I ever had an image of JESUS on my wall....my view on Jesus is that he was not some good looking, flowing brown haired, blue eyed man like you see in the Catholic paintings......if anything he was probably one of the most base, weak looking average ordinary Jewish man.....there was nothing in him that would make us desire him according to scriptures.......and the law proves guilt....it does not exonerate anyone....for the record....I hate statues of JESUS, MARY, any SAINT and fully despise the paintings and pics of JESUS that make hi out like this good looking, brown haired blue eyed stud............not my Jesus
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blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

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Not to derail the thread, but...ah heck, you know I'm gonna anyway :p since you mentioned pictures of Jesus on the wall. I have one that the Mormons gave me back in 1990, on my wall in the kitchen. NO, I do not worship it or pray to it. LOL

I've been thinking for awhile now about getting rid of it, but I kinda feel sacreligious throwing it in the dumpster. :/ What should I do with it??


dcontroversal said:
Apples and oranges....and I do not, nor have I ever had an image of JESUS on my wall....my view on Jesus is that he was not some good looking, flowing brown haired, blue eyed man like you see in the Catholic paintings......if anything he was probably one of the most base, weak looking average ordinary Jewish man.....there was nothing in him that would make us desire him according to scriptures.......and the law proves guilt....it does not exonerate anyone....for the record....I hate statues of JESUS, MARY, any SAINT and fully despise the paintings and pics of JESUS that make hi out like this good looking, brown haired blue eyed stud............not my Jesus
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stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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BillG said:
I thought it was a total rejection of Jesus.

I have to bed honest here.
The first time I heard tongues spoken in church (I used to go to an Anglican church but eventually ended up in a Baptist church)
I thought it was evil, I went away saying I would not go back again, I did go back for a few years.
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would you believe I did too? And now I speak in the Spirit way more than English.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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blue_ladybug said:
Not to derail the thread, but...ah heck, you know I'm gonna anyway :p since you mentioned pictures of Jesus on the wall. I have one that the Mormons gave me back in 1990, on my wall in the kitchen. NO, I do not worship it or pray to it. LOL

I've been thinking for awhile now about getting rid of it, but I kinda feel sacreligious throwing it in the dumpster. :/ What should I do with it??
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I would follow my heart remembering there is no condemnation on you.

or me:)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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mj007 said:
What about when say, faith healers heal others in the name of Jesus, and have a high regard and belief in Jesus? Do you associate that with the devil or with Jesus?
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What does that have to do with a group of men that claimed JESUS was using the power of the devil to do his work....it is obvious that JESUS was doing his work by the power of GOD.....as far as your example....they claim Christ is their power behind their work.....not the devil....so, how does that apply?
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

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Well, my heart (mind, conscience, whatever) tells me to get rid of it. But I really don't want to just throw Jesus in the trash..


stonesoffire said:
I would follow my heart remembering there is no condemnation on you.

or me:)
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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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blue_ladybug said:
Not to derail the thread, but...ah heck, you know I'm gonna anyway :p since you mentioned pictures of Jesus on the wall. I have one that the Mormons gave me back in 1990, on my wall in the kitchen. NO, I do not worship it or pray to it. LOL

I've been thinking for awhile now about getting rid of it, but I kinda feel sacreligious throwing it in the dumpster. :/ What should I do with it??
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The good thing with me on this one Blue....is I will not condemn you for that....it is between you, God and your conscience....ALL I know is what Isaiah 53 states...he had no comeliness in him that we should desire him and the bible does say to not have an image of anything in heaven....so....kind of like having respect unto a holiday.....not my place to judge...that is between you and God Blue......
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

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Well, I could just put it out on the porch with a "free" sign on it..somebody will take it.. lol


dcontroversal said:
The good thing with me on this one Blue....is I will not condemn you for that....it is between you, God and your conscience....ALL I know is what Isaiah 53 states...he had no comeliness in him that we should desire him and the bible does say to not have an image of anything in heaven....so....kind of like having respect unto a holiday.....not my place to judge...that is between you and God Blue......
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