The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Greeting Justpassinthrough,

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
2. The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
3. The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Number 1 and 2 take place in a Nano second of each other and that prior to God's wrath.

Number 3 takes place after God's wrath, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.


The on-going problem is when people interpret all three of these as being the same event. When the resurrection of the dead and the changing of the living takes place (rapture), the Lord descends only to meet the church in the air and take us back to the Father's house. Where at the second coming, the Lord returns to the earth and the church with him to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

Prior to the Lord returning to the earth, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be gathered prior to His wrath.

 

[heartofdavid]

You quoted my post that contained 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Why would you think that is not pertaining to the rapture?

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


[FONT=&quot]Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord: The Gathering of His people: Resurrection, Rapture, destruction of the false messiah.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is the order of those three things:[/FONT]

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
2. The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
3. The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.

JLB

It is pertaining to it.
No problem there

 

[heartofdavid]

You quoted my post that contained 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Why would you think that is not pertaining to the rapture?

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


[FONT=&quot]Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord: The Gathering of His people: Resurrection, Rapture, destruction of the false messiah.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is the order of those three things:[/FONT]

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
2. The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
3. The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.

JLB

No,rev 19 is not the rapture.
Lot was not gathered after sodom burned.
Neither was noah gathered post flood.
The church gathered is not the second coming

 

[Endoscopy]

Hello LightLoveHope,



The answer to that is that, after the church is gathered there will be a great multitude of Gentile believers who will come to Christ. These are the those in white robes who will come out of the great tribulation period, as revealed in Rev.7:9-17. In addition, the remnant of Israel will also be on the earth during that time in fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon them and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27). Those who survive through the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign, will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulation the earth during that thousand years.



And you are correct, as many believers are facing terrible persecution and death, which is what Jesus said believers would experience and which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. However, after church has been gathered, the day of the Lord will begin, which is the period of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will continue leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The wrath of God has not yet begun, but will begin once the church has been removed.

It is important to understand the underlying principle as to why the church must be gathered off the earth prior to God's wrath. And the reason is that, Christ experience the wrath of God for every believer, satisfying it completely. The believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God. Therefore His wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, which is supported by scripture which says, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10), that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus promised to keep us out of the time of wrath (Rev.3:10). Therefore, the church will not go through the time of God's wrath, also known as "the day of the Lord."

Don't confuse the common trials and tribulation that God said believers would have, with God's coming wrath. These are two completely different happenings. God's wrath which He will carry out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be like nothing the world has ever experienced, decimating the majority of the earths population and dismantling all human government. This is supported by Jesus when he said, "if those days had not been cut short, no one would be left alive." - Matt.24:22.



Why would you or anyone want to go through the wrath of God, as it is not going to be something to be proud of. Anyone who finds themselves here during that time, will be because the were not in a right state with God when he comes to get the church. Again, you need to understand the difference between common trial and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath. They are not the same.

Still ignoriig the 4 seperate views of end times I see. You keep claiming that you know better than the theolotheol that for centuries have worked and cannot reduce the Biblical end times theories to a single one. You are correct and the world of theologians through the centuries are wrong.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Well so far, the more I read the arguments of the pre-tribbers, the less credible I am finding that theory. Pre tribbers are well on the way to convincing me that they are wrong.

So many of the scriptures and arguments used to promote a pre-trib rapture look as though they are indicating the OPPOSITE.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well so far, the more I read the arguments of the pre-tribbers, the less credible I am finding that theory. Pre tribbers are well on the way to convincing me that they are wrong.

So many of the scriptures and arguments used to promote a pre-trib rapture look as though they are indicating the OPPOSITE.

Instead of talking about "pre-tribbers" why don't you focus on the imminency of the coming of Christ for His saints? That which is IMMINENT is not dependent upon anything other than God's decision to catch up the Church. Which means that the Rapture could take place even today.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Still ignoriig the 4 seperate views of end times I see. You keep claiming that you know better than the theolotheol that for centuries have worked and cannot reduce the Biblical end times theories to a single one. You are correct and the world of theologians through the centuries are wrong.

If there are four separate views, you should IGNORE three of them as untenable and accept one. So which one do you accept?

 

[Endoscopy]

If there are four separate views, you should IGNORE three of them as untenable and accept one. So which one do you accept?

It is obvious that you ignore the fact that all 4 conform to scripture. Since Daniel and Revelation are full of symbolism that makes it impossible tt make a decision on only one acceptable view. Look at the statue in Daniel. When it was written it was pure symbolism without understanding. Today after time has passed each level except for the feet has come to pass so those levels are known. The assumption is the feet are today. So please explain how we are supposed to know the rest of the symbolic images are to be interpreted. Theologians studying eschatologyical scripture for centuries have tried to narrow down the 4 views to one but still are stuck with all 4. It is amazing how some on this board think they are so much more knowledgeable about eschatology than theologithe that over centuries have tried to narrow down the 4 views and failed. If you claim to be smarter than all of the theologians for centuries please step forward and explain to this board what you think you know how to reject 3 of the 4 views. Define their errors please. Here is reference to them. Start refuting 3 of them.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.


https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is obvious that you ignore the fact that all 4 conform to scripture.

No. They DO NOT conform to Scripture. Here is why three of those four views are totally false and delusional.

As presented in https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Selected Errors of Historical Premillennialism
1. Israel and the church: The church is the fulfillment of Israel.
2. The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds immediately preceding the millennial reign.

Selected Errors of Postmillennialism
1. Israel and the church: the church is the fulfillment of Israel.
2. The Millennium: a Golden Age previous to Christ's second advent during which Christ will virtually rule over the whole earth through an unprecedented spread of the Gospel; the large majority of people will be Christian.

Selected Errors of Amillennialism
1. Israel and the church: The church is the eschatological fulfillment of Israel.
2. The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds and immediately proceed to judge the nations with Christ and then follow Him into their eternal state.
3. The Millennium: inaugurated with Christ's resurrection. In an "already/not yet" sense, Christ already reigns over all and is already victorious over Satan.

As one can see, almost the same errors are presented in all of these three FALSE VIEWS of the Rapture and the Millennium. So let’s see how Scripture demolishes them so that they can be easily rejected by Christians, and only one correct Scriptural view can be accepted.

ERROR #1. Israel and the church: the church is the fulfillment of Israel.
If this is indeed true then one has to reject the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, as well as all the OT and NT prophecies about the redemption and restoration of Israel. The proof that this is TOTALLY FALSE is easily found in the prophecy of Ezekiel, which clearly speaks about the twelve tribes of Israel living in the Promised Land as twelve tribes, with a temple in Jerusalem.
Just a small portion of Ezekiel should suffice (Ezek 36:22-38;37:21-28 KJB):

GOD’S HOLY NAME TO BE VINDICATED
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

ISRAEL TO BE GATHERED FROM AMONG THE NATIONS
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL TO BE ACCOMPLISHED
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

RESTORATION OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO BE ACCOMPLISHED
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

DAVID TO RULE ISRAEL UNDER CHRIST
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

GOD’S ETERNAL SANCTUARY TO BE IN ISRAEL
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

ERROR #2. The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds immediately preceding the millennial reign.
This simply ignores two important revelations regarding the Church: (1) we must all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and (2) the Marriage of the Lamb, and these must PRECEDE the second coming of Christ. Therefore it is simply ABSURD to imagine that the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming can be one simultaneously event. So here are the Scriptures which refute this nonsense.

THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God... For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (Rom 14:10-12; 2 Cor 5:10).

THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB
And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:5-9).

ERROR #3. The Millennium: a Golden Age previous to Christ's second advent during which Christ will virtually rule over the whole earth through an unprecedented spread of the Gospel; the large majority of people will be Christian... The Millennium: inaugurated with Christ's resurrection. In an "already/not yet" sense, Christ already reigns over all and is already victorious over Satan.
This is so delusional that it requires no further comment. If we are living in “a Golden Age” we have to ignore all the sin, and evil, and crimes, and atrocities, and abuses, and slaughter of millions of innocents, which are reported daily, and delude ourselves into thinking that this is what Christ’s Millennium looks like (with Satan and his minions on the loose)!

 

[heartofdavid]

Well so far, the more I read the arguments of the pre-tribbers, the less credible I am finding that theory. Pre tribbers are well on the way to convincing me that they are wrong.

So many of the scriptures and arguments used to promote a pre-trib rapture look as though they are indicating the OPPOSITE.

Then it will be safe to say lot was removed after the city was destroyed, noah got rescued post flood,and the antichrist doesnt require all to take the mark.
Are those things opposite ?

 

[DiscipleDave]

First like I keep telling others, keep it short if you want people to read it!! I didn't bother to go past the early part.

First like i keep telling you, i will continue to write as the Holy Spirit prompts me.

Jim Jones was a preacher that got people to believe he had a special message from God. He had the church he was preaching in so committed to him they followed him to Guyana. There he had a huge batch of kool-aid laced with poison made up and everyone drank it including himself. It took over a week to get the bodies out of there and then finally buried. His autopsy showed he had a terminal illness.

That horrible. And how many people today are still knowingly and willingly obeying the enemy of Jesus Christ by choosing to commit sin? In my eyes, the cult above was deceived, likewise all those who continue to live in sin is equally deceived.

I reject you because of the fact that you think you know the end times.

So Endoscopy rejects me, what is that to me?

God sent an angel to tell you.

Is satan whispering to you these things? What you say here is a lie? Tell me, is a lie from God or from satan? Know you not that ALL LIARS will be cast into fire and brimstone? (Rev 21:8) You have now said again, that an angel has told me end time events. i never said that, nor have i even implied such a thing, so then who is telling you that i have? Who is making you think that is the Truth? i assure you it is not the Holy Spirit, nor God, nor Jesus, nor an Angel, but is satan. Satan tells lies, and for some reason, he told you that what i know comes from angels. Little advice for you Brother, stop listening to satan and stop saying things that are not TRUE. Continue to say things that are not TRUE and you will be found an LIAR, and no liar will enter into Heaven. i have warned you Brother.

You ignore and reject the 4 Biblical views of eschatology

lol. How can i ignore something that i know nothing about. That is like me saying "Endoscopy, you ignore and reject the 4 Scientifical views of the star M151", when you have no ideal what those view even are. lol.

that theologians for centuries have worked

So your upset because i choose not study or read or look into what Men say the end times will be. lol.

on trying to discern which one if any is the one that is correct.

One of those view might very well be the same thing God told me, i do not know which one is correct, or if none are correct, i have never read them, nor do i know anything about them, for some reason you refuse to understand that.

Your attitude is "I'm right and the world is wrong!"

You have got it all wrong. What i know, is that God is right, and what i and men think is wrong, fallable, and can be persuaded by the influences of satan.

What God told me is RIGHT, what i think is irrelevant, what you think is irrelevant, what the 4 views think is irrelevant, what Billions of people in the planet Earth think is irrelevant. What God told me is RIGHT.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

After over 8,000 replies, no one can actually show one verse, where Jesus said hes taking Christians before the tribulation of Satan.. its not there..

That is because there isn't any verse that teaches the Church is Raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation Period. Not one verse.

Pointing to verses out of context, and inserting a idea ( see here this is it ) ,
where the passage does not even say anything close to the idea ;
is not how a real believer is supposed to read scripture.

No interpretation .

Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN. This generation would do well to know and understand that TRUTH. Why do you think there are so many different denominations, so many different versions of the Bible? Because men took it upon themselves to try to interpret the Word of God, as if they had the authority to do so. The Result = many divisions in Christianity, many different versions of the Bible. Doesn't Scriptures plainly teach to "Be of ONE mind" to "Think the same things" In these last days, the Church does not even have a complete body. The hand and the feet are divided, and are not working together in the Body, but are divided against each other. The hand saying "I want nothing to do with the feet, they do not believe as we do" and the feet saying "I want nothing to do with the hands, they do not believe as we do"
The Church Body today is divided. And namely divided because men took it upon themselves to try to interpret the Word of God, they have altogether failed to understand the Scriptures which teach "Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN" God will reveal to whom God will reveal.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Instead of talking about "pre-tribbers" why don't you focus on the imminency of the coming of Christ for His saints? That which is IMMINENT is not dependent upon anything other than God's decision to catch up the Church. Which means that the Rapture could take place even today.

The Rapture could not take place today. If it did, then Scriptures lies. Those things that Scriptures says must take place first must indeed take place first. The Rapture can not happen until all in Scriptures concerning the Rapture are fulfilled.

True we are to look for Him to come today. For lo we can die this very day. So it is wise that you live your life as if you could die today, are you living right? Are you living Righteous? Are you living Holy like God is Holy? Are you walking in the light like Jesus walks in the light? Are you obeying Jesus? Today is enough problems to be concerned with. Once a person is walking the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting, satan and his cohorts will come at you with all he's got to get you off that path and back into living in sins. Today is enough to be concerned about. Now once you are walking a Righteous path, then delve into things that are to come.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Endoscopy]

No. They DO NOT conform to Scripture. Here is why three of those four views are totally false and delusional.

As presented in https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Selected Errors of Historical Premillennialism
1. Israel and the church: The church is the fulfillment of Israel.
2. The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds immediately preceding the millennial reign.

Selected Errors of Postmillennialism
1. Israel and the church: the church is the fulfillment of Israel.
2. The Millennium: a Golden Age previous to Christ's second advent during which Christ will virtually rule over the whole earth through an unprecedented spread of the Gospel; the large majority of people will be Christian.

Selected Errors of Amillennialism
1. Israel and the church: The church is the eschatological fulfillment of Israel.
2. The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds and immediately proceed to judge the nations with Christ and then follow Him into their eternal state.
3. The Millennium: inaugurated with Christ's resurrection. In an "already/not yet" sense, Christ already reigns over all and is already victorious over Satan.

As one can see, almost the same errors are presented in all of these three FALSE VIEWS of the Rapture and the Millennium. So let’s see how Scripture demolishes them so that they can be easily rejected by Christians, and only one correct Scriptural view can be accepted.

ERROR #1. Israel and the church: the church is the fulfillment of Israel.
If this is indeed true then one has to reject the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, as well as all the OT and NT prophecies about the redemption and restoration of Israel. The proof that this is TOTALLY FALSE is easily found in the prophecy of Ezekiel, which clearly speaks about the twelve tribes of Israel living in the Promised Land as twelve tribes, with a temple in Jerusalem.
Just a small portion of Ezekiel should suffice (Ezek 36:22-38;37:21-28 KJB):

GOD’S HOLY NAME TO BE VINDICATED
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

ISRAEL TO BE GATHERED FROM AMONG THE NATIONS
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL TO BE ACCOMPLISHED
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

RESTORATION OF THE LAND OF ISRAEL TO BE ACCOMPLISHED
I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

DAVID TO RULE ISRAEL UNDER CHRIST
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

GOD’S ETERNAL SANCTUARY TO BE IN ISRAEL
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

ERROR #2. The Rapture: The saints, living and dead, shall meet the Lord in the clouds immediately preceding the millennial reign.
This simply ignores two important revelations regarding the Church: (1) we must all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and (2) the Marriage of the Lamb, and these must PRECEDE the second coming of Christ. Therefore it is simply ABSURD to imagine that the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming can be one simultaneously event. So here are the Scriptures which refute this nonsense.

THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God... For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (Rom 14:10-12; 2 Cor 5:10).

THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB
And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:5-9).

ERROR #3. The Millennium: a Golden Age previous to Christ's second advent during which Christ will virtually rule over the whole earth through an unprecedented spread of the Gospel; the large majority of people will be Christian... The Millennium: inaugurated with Christ's resurrection. In an "already/not yet" sense, Christ already reigns over all and is already victorious over Satan.
This is so delusional that it requires no further comment. If we are living in “a Golden Age” we have to ignore all the sin, and evil, and crimes, and atrocities, and abuses, and slaughter of millions of innocents, which are reported daily, and delude ourselves into thinking that this is what Christ’s Millennium looks like (with Satan and his minions on the loose)!

I only looked at the top part of your long diatribe. All of your assertioas have no scriptural defense. The massive problem you have is Daniel and Revelation havr abounding symbolism that has no clear cut definitions. Theologians for centuries have labored over these books containing the vast majority of eschatologyical scripture. They found that there are 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology Then along comes those like you that without scriptural rebuttal reject the centuries of theologians work.

For some reason i can't make myself believe you as opposed to those theologians Sorry Charlie!! (If you don't recognize the quote charlie the Tuna was rejected by Sunkist in adds for years.). I find voices like you to be like Jim Jones who gave a new meaning to kool-aid.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I find voices like you to be like Jim Jones who gave a new meaning to kool-aid.

The Kool-Aid you've been drinking would require Christians to believe that four DIFFERING views are all equally valid. That's like telling a tourist that he can go North, South, East, and West all at the same time. And you dismissed what I posted because YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! So kindly go back and see that I have given you solid Scriptural reasons for rejecting three of those views. Israel is NOT the Church, and the Church is NOT Israel. And the Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be simultaneous. That would be like asking an elevator to go up and down at the same time. An absurdity.

 

[Endoscopy]

The Kool-Aid you've been drinking would require Christians to believe that four DIFFERING views are all equally valid. That's like telling a tourist that he can go North, South, East, and West all at the same time. And you dismissed what I posted because YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! So kindly go back and see that I have given you solid Scriptural reasons for rejecting three of those views. Israel is NOT the Church, and the Church is NOT Israel. And the Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be simultaneous. That would be like asking an elevator to go up and down at the same time. An absurdity.

What I can't handle is egotistical people spouting that theologians that for centuries have looked at eschatology and have found 4 seperate Biblical views and then along comes fools who claim they understand all of the symbolism about eschatology in Daniel and Revelation. You believe that you are one of the very few who claim to understand everything about eschatology. It is obvious to the casual observer that you have severe issues you need to resolve.

 

[heartofdavid]

The key is israel becoming a nation.
The Jews have been regathering back for years.
The gentile nations are aligning and being aligned.
Historicist fathers never saw this

 

[louis]

The Kool-Aid you've been drinking would require Christians to believe that four DIFFERING views are all equally valid. That's like telling a tourist that he can go North, South, East, and West all at the same time. And you dismissed what I posted because YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! So kindly go back and see that I have given you solid Scriptural reasons for rejecting three of those views. Israel is NOT the Church, and the Church is NOT Israel. And the Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be simultaneous. That would be like asking an elevator to go up and down at the same time. An absurdity.

The reason theologians in the past could not decipher the meaning in the book of Daniel (much of which appears in Revelation), is that the visions shown Daniel were sealed and meant to be understood in the age the visions corresponded to (Daniel 8:17 & 19; 12:4 & 9). We are now entering the time appointed, and so knowledge of these events is increasing.

Daniel 8:17 [FONT=&quot]So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]for at the time of the end shall be the vision[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.[/FONT]

Daniel 12:4 [FONT=&quot]But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and[/FONT][FONT=&quot] seal the book, even to the time of the end[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.[/FONT]

 

[Endoscopy]

The reason theologians in the past could not decipher the meaning in the book of Daniel (much of which appears in Revelation), is that the visions shown Daniel were sealed and meant to be understood in the age the visions corresponded to (Daniel 8:17 & 19; 12:4 & 9). We are now entering the time appointed, and so knowledge of these events is increasing.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The problem with your assertion is for centuries have come said the same thing. I will believe it when the temple is built again. Muslims will go insaneiwhen that happens.

 

[louis]

The problem with your assertion is for centuries have come said the same thing. I will believe it when the temple is built again. Muslims will go insaneiwhen that happens.

Daniel 9:27 makes no claim about a temple being rebuilt. It only mentions the abomination of desolation.
Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14 claims the abomination of desolation, standing in the holy place where he ought not to stand. There is nothing about a temple being rebuilt. This is another case on how man made dogma twists scriptures.

Matthew 24:15 [FONT=&quot]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

[/FONT]Mark 13:14 [FONT=&quot]But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:[/FONT]