The Rapture

[Locutus]

First see what happened at the Cross and then come back and ask.

Why don't you read revelation and get back to us with your "theory"...


Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Not to mention most of the apostles dying on the job..

 

[heartofdavid]

Three major things happen at the coming of the Lord:

1. First, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. Second, the Rapture.
3. Third, the destruction of the antichrist; the false messiah, the man of sin, the lawless one.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride. Mat 25.
The second coming is rev 19. Two separate events

 

[LightLoveHope]

Greetings LightLoveHope,

The answer as to why God's people should be spared, is because it is the direct wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that will be unleashed on a Christ rejecting world and to fulfill the last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.

Believers in Christ have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Since what is coming is the direct wrath of God, then the church must be gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath which is the opening of the first seal.

Furthermore, the gathering of the church (rapture) is not adding to Revelation and that because Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to that event and which why the word "Ekklesia" translated as "church" is never seen from that time forward. The next time we see the word "church" is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

Greetings Ahwatukee,

If the world is just Christ rejecting people left, why let it rumble on?
Seems better to just bring in judgement, and close it all down.

Many testify believers are already in terrible persecution and facing
death, so the book of revelations seems to be just a book saying
this will come to an end, and there is great glory in persevering.

Many people preached the rapture to a church, when it would have
been better to prepare them for trials with much violence and pain.
So I see the message of hope if the key, not escapism.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello LightLoveHope,

If the world is just Christ rejecting people left, why let it rumble on? Seems better to just bring in judgement, and close it all down.

The answer to that is that, after the church is gathered there will be a great multitude of Gentile believers who will come to Christ. These are the those in white robes who will come out of the great tribulation period, as revealed in Rev.7:9-17. In addition, the remnant of Israel will also be on the earth during that time in fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon them and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27). Those who survive through the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign, will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulation the earth during that thousand years.

Many testify believers are already in terrible persecution and facing
death, so the book of revelations seems to be just a book saying
this will come to an end, and there is great glory in persevering.

And you are correct, as many believers are facing terrible persecution and death, which is what Jesus said believers would experience and which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. However, after church has been gathered, the day of the Lord will begin, which is the period of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will continue leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The wrath of God has not yet begun, but will begin once the church has been removed.

It is important to understand the underlying principle as to why the church must be gathered off the earth prior to God's wrath. And the reason is that, Christ experience the wrath of God for every believer, satisfying it completely. The believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God. Therefore His wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, which is supported by scripture which says, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10), that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that Jesus promised to keep us out of the time of wrath (Rev.3:10). Therefore, the church will not go through the time of God's wrath, also known as "the day of the Lord."

Don't confuse the common trials and tribulation that God said believers would have, with God's coming wrath. These are two completely different happenings. God's wrath which He will carry out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be like nothing the world has ever experienced, decimating the majority of the earths population and dismantling all human government. This is supported by Jesus when he said, "if those days had not been cut short, no one would be left alive." - Matt.24:22.

So I see the message of hope if the key, not escapism.

Why would you or anyone want to go through the wrath of God, as it is not going to be something to be proud of. Anyone who finds themselves here during that time, will be because the were not in a right state with God when he comes to get the church. Again, you need to understand the difference between common trial and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath. They are not the same.

 

[OtherWay210]

After over 8,000 replies, no one can actually show one verse, where Jesus said hes taking Christians before the tribulation of Satan.. its not there..


Pointing to verses out of context, and inserting a idea ( see here this is it ) ,
where the passage does not even say anything close to the idea ;
is not how a real believer is supposed to read scripture.

No interpretation .

 

[Nehemiah6]

After over 8,000 replies, no one can actually show one verse, where Jesus said hes taking Christians before the tribulation of Satan.. its not there..

Some things do not need to be said. They are IMPLIED in Scripture. The problem today is that too many Christians believe that if something is not stated explicitly, it cannot possibly be true. But God gave us minds to be exercised, along with faith.

 

[justpassinthrough]

The rapture is the gathering of the bride. Mat 25.
The second coming is rev 19. Two separate events

The coming of the Lord is when the resurrection and rapture take place.




15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...



As you can see the resurrection of the dead in Christ comes first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


This is one event, that takes place at His coming.


The third thing that takes place at His coming is Jesus will destroy the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.


[FONT=&quot]And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day OtherWay210,

After over 8,000 replies, no one can actually show one verse, where Jesus said hes taking Christians before the tribulation of Satan.. its not there..

Neither is there any direct verse that says Jesus is gathering believers mid or post tribulation.

The understanding regarding the church being gathered prior to the tribulation period, is garnered from cross-referencing and comparing scripture. For example, we continue to make known to you and others the underlying principle in that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. The believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and has been reconciled to God. Therefore this being true, then believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath, because Jesus already did. But you have not believed any of this. When you take this information into consideration, then it provides an answer to the question of when the gathering of the church will take place.

Another proof that we have given to you is that, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Matt.24:29-31. I have pointed out that the bride/church is seen in Rev.19:6-8 receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb, which is taking place in heaven. Then in Rev.19:14, it shows the bride/church wearing her fine linen and following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses. Point being that, in order for the bride/church to follow Christ out of heaven to return to the earth, then she would already have to be in heaven. However, you have not taken into consideration any of these proofs.

Therefore, if you are waiting for someone to show you a verse that says "here it is! This is where the gathering takes place," that is not going to happen. It's as though you don't want to know the real truth so that you can hang on to the false teachings that you have already adopted as being the truth.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

Good day OtherWay210,

Therefore, if you are waiting for someone to show you a verse that says "here it is! This is where the gathering takes place," that is not going to happen. It's as though you don't want to know the real truth so that you can hang on to the false teachings that you have already adopted as being the truth.

O how well this fits you!

 

[heartofdavid]

The coming of the Lord is when the resurrection and rapture take place.




15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...



As you can see the resurrection of the dead in Christ comes first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


This is one event, that takes place at His coming.


The third thing that takes place at His coming is Jesus will destroy the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Those verses from 1 thes is the pretrib rapture.

We know this for one reason,among many,that in mat 25 the depiction of the rapture,the bride and groom go into the marriage chamber,which would be heaven.
postribs need the scenario that the bride and groom do a uturn back to the bride's dwelling.

That is one among many scenarios that destroy the postrib rapture theory.

Others include that the AC requires every human to take the mark or die,plus the fact that Jesus uses lot and Noah. You guys would need lot and Noah to be taken out AFTER THE JUDGEMENT/HAILSTONES OF FIRE/FLOOD DESTRUCTION.

As you can see,pretrib rapture is sound doctrine.

 

[heartofdavid]

After over 8,000 replies, no one can actually show one verse, where Jesus said hes taking Christians before the tribulation of Satan.. its not there..


Pointing to verses out of context, and inserting a idea ( see here this is it ) ,
where the passage does not even say anything close to the idea ;
is not how a real believer is supposed to read scripture.

No interpretation .

Or just post our many verses which HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO YOU,and tell us why you refute it.

Those sweeping generalities will shrink on down when to go toe to toe.

 

[iamsoandso]

"Tribulation of satin",,,things that differ are not the same are they?,,,,

 

[heartofdavid]

Greetings Ahwatukee,

If the world is just Christ rejecting people left, why let it rumble on?
Seems better to just bring in judgement, and close it all down.

Many testify believers are already in terrible persecution and facing
death, so the book of revelations seems to be just a book saying
this will come to an end, and there is great glory in persevering.

Many people preached the rapture to a church, when it would have
been better to prepare them for trials with much violence and pain.
So I see the message of hope if the key, not escapism.

There is no such thing as believers going through the GT.
The bible declares every man ,woman,and child take the mark.
You have no such notion that believers go through the trib in the bible. They are all killed for refusing the mark.

So I see the message of hope if the key, not escapism.

Lot,noah,and the baby Jesus all escaped.

Jesus actually told to pray TO ESCAPE. Luke 21:36[FONT=&quot]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escapeall these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 11:5[/FONT]
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

In rev 3 we see this depiction of the rapture. Only those worthy walk in heaven in white;
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

"Tribulation of satin",,,things that differ are not the same are they?,,,,

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The white horse rider comes before or at the appearance of the AC.
He has a job. His main job is to kill saints. That is the purpose and power is given him to overcome those left behind.
He kills all who refuse the mark.

So,right away,the church age ends,and ushers in jacobs touble.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The white horse rider comes before or at the appearance of the AC.
He has a job. His main job is to kill saints. That is the purpose and power is given him to overcome those left behind.
He kills all who refuse the mark.

So,right away,the church age ends,and ushers in jacobs touble.

Hey heartofdavid,

Just FYI, the 1st seal rider on the white horse is representing the AC

 

[abcdef]

Good day OtherWay210,



Neither is there any direct verse that says Jesus is gathering believers mid or post tribulation.

The understanding regarding the church being gathered prior to the tribulation period, is garnered from cross-referencing and comparing scripture. For example, we continue to make known to you and others the underlying principle in that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. The believer has been credited with the righteousness of Christ and has been reconciled to God. Therefore this being true, then believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath, because Jesus already did. But you have not believed any of this. When you take this information into consideration, then it provides an answer to the question of when the gathering of the church will take place.

Another proof that we have given to you is that, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Matt.24:29-31. I have pointed out that the bride/church is seen in Rev.19:6-8 receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb, which is taking place in heaven. Then in Rev.19:14, it shows the bride/church wearing her fine linen and following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses. Point being that, in order for the bride/church to follow Christ out of heaven to return to the earth, then she would already have to be in heaven. However, you have not taken into consideration any of these proofs.

Therefore, if you are waiting for someone to show you a verse that says "here it is! This is where the gathering takes place," that is not going to happen.

Here it is! This is where the gathering takes place! 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

This passage shows only 2 resurrections, Jesus and those at His coming.

It says after the rapt/resur of those at His coming, then it is the end where death is destroyed.

So the trib and the mill must take place between the 2 resurrections.

That would make the gathering "of His coming", post trib and post mill.

2 resurrections only, Jesus and those at His coming, the trib and all events on earth must take place between the 2 resurrections.

It's as though you don't want to know the real truth so that you can hang on to the false teachings that you have already adopted as being the truth.

Brother Ahwatukee,

Who was the iron nation 500 years ago?

Who is the iron nation today?

Who is the harlot of Rev 17?

Who is the head, of the harlot today? For the last 1500 years?

You know the answers.

But then, that changes everything, doesn't it?

 

[heartofdavid]

The coming of the Lord is when the resurrection and rapture take place.




15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...



As you can see the resurrection of the dead in Christ comes first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


This is one event, that takes place at His coming.


The third thing that takes place at His coming is Jesus will destroy the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.


[FONT=&quot]And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8[/FONT]

So all the pretrib rapture verses you skip?
Btw there are no postrib rapture verses

 

[heartofdavid]

Here it is! This is where the gathering takes place! 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

This passage shows only 2 resurrections, Jesus and those at His coming.

It says after the rapt/resur of those at His coming, then it is the end where death is destroyed.

So the trib and the mill must take place between the 2 resurrections.

That would make the gathering "of His coming", post trib and post mill.

2 resurrections only, Jesus and those at His coming, the trib and all events on earth must take place between the 2 resurrections.




Brother Ahwatukee,

Who was the iron nation 500 years ago?

Who is the iron nation today?

Who is the harlot of Rev 17?

Who is the head, of the harlot today? For the last 1500 years?

You know the answers.

But then, that changes everything, doesn't it?

When was the ac and the mark?
The flying scorpions?

Oooops

 

[heartofdavid]

Ironic how history debunks the historicist view

 

[justpassinthrough]

So all the pretrib rapture verses you skip?
Btw there are no postrib rapture verses

You quoted my post that contained 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Why would you think that is not pertaining to the rapture?

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


[FONT=&quot]Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord: The Gathering of His people: Resurrection, Rapture, destruction of the false messiah.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here is the order of those three things:[/FONT]

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
2. The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
3. The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.

JLB