Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull said:
Be careful bro. He says this is what he believes, yet when you listen to him, it is not what he says.
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I agree and the whole shebang is corrupted....not saved till Jesus comes, Not saved until Jesus SEES our works....his JESUS must be blind........and to say one MUST have works when the bible states NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US......tells me all I need to know about his false dogma......one contradiction after another!
 
BillG said:
If that is true then quite frankly I'm gutted.
I truly am. Went out on limb for someone, someone who showed compassion when I opened up and he Pm'd me.


When I revealed that I was lambasted.
It seems maybe the lambasting was in order.

I never ever want to make it personal, attack another person.

Yet know I feel like I'm in no man's land.
Maybe I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm weak.

Not sure where to go next.

Not looking for sympathy or backup.
Just saying what I feel now.

Will I still walk with such a person?
At this moment yes.
I have never endorsed false doctrine, never will.
Just want to see people set free.

Oh well.
Click to expand...

We love your stance and spirit bro.....regardless of his antics.....keep swinging the sword and giving it beans captain.....chin up and sally ho..........
 
Dear friends,

if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God

and receive from him anything we ask,

because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.

And this is his command:

to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and

to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 3:20-23

This is how we know that
we love the children of God:
by loving God and carrying out his commands.

This is love for God:
to obey his commands.

And his commands are not burdensome,

for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:2-4

Thanks be to God!
He gives us the victory through
our
Lord
Jesus
Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:57
 
dcontroversal said:
I agree and the whole shebang is corrupted....not saved till Jesus comes, Not saved until Jesus SEES our works....his JESUS must be blind........and to say one MUST have works when the bible states NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US......tells me all I need to know about his false dogma......one contradiction after another!
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I do believe that Jesus will see who has he blood applied and who does not. A life changed by the wonder working power of the Blood is evident.
 
valleyofdecision said:
I do believe that Jesus will see who has he blood applied and who does not. A life changed by the wonder working power of the Blood is evident.
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I agree, but will add.....the bible is replete with the saved that have every gambit of work...some good and righteous, some contrary and sinful....also the sanctification of the life and daily living is a process of growth and maturity which can be stunted and or haphazard based upon the amount of the word and type of teaching one gets....some may bear one apple, some an abundance...and yet an apple tree is an apple tree by birth from the moment it sprouts LONG before it produces one piece of fruit...also...it may bear little, a lot, or have years where it bears nothing due to "spiritual drought" and or may produce and slowly produce less as it ages and begins to die off.....and lest we forget....ALL who have been genuinely saved have already done the WORKS of the Heavenly FATHER...also....a cup of cold water alone will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....but to say that NONE will be saved until JESUS sees our works totally contradicts the bible.
 
dcontroversal said:
I agree, but will add.....the bible is replete with the saved that have every gambit of work...some good and righteous, some contrary and sinful....also the sanctification of the life and daily living is a process of growth and maturity which can be stunted and or haphazard based upon the amount of the word and type of teaching one gets....some may bear one apple, some an abundance...and yet an apple tree is an apple tree by birth from the moment it sprouts LONG before it produces one piece of fruit...also...it may bear little, a lot, or have years where it bears nothing due to "spiritual drought" and or may produce and slowly produce less as it ages and begins to die off.....and lest we forget....ALL who have been genuinely saved have already done the WORKS of the Heavenly FATHER...also....a cup of cold water alone will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded.....but to say that NONE will be saved until JESUS sees our works totally contradicts the bible.
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John 15 & Luke 13:6-9 says if we are in him, that is the only way we bear fruit and because we are in him and only in him we will, bear fruit. If you are in Christ you will bear fruit and it will remain, because the only way we can bear fruit is through the incorruptible seed. The fruit is after salvation and not a proof of salvation, but proof of a changed life after taking the free gift of salvation and gift of imputed righteousness.

I see the context of Matt 10:40-43 a bit different than about salvation.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. [SUP]41 [/SUP]He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. [SUP]42 [/SUP]And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.”

I take this to mean that anyone who gives one of Jesus' followers cold cup of water will be rewarded. Not sure if the reward their means eternal life or not because of the context of the preceding verses. I am not sure that Matt 10:42 is also on track with Matt 25:35 I can see why you would say this and have heard this interpretation before, but I cannot see it in the context of the other verses.
 
BillG said:
If that is true then quite frankly I'm gutted.
I truly am. Went out on limb for someone, someone who showed compassion when I opened up and he Pm'd me.
Click to expand...

No doubt in my mind Bill, the guy obviously has some unfinished axe grinding retribution to deal out.

It's pathetic really.
 
Even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses,
did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said,
"The Lord rebuke you!"


Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand;
and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--
these are the very things that destroy them.

Woe to them!

They have taken the way of Cain;

they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error;

they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

Jude 1:9-11

Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow-you and they and Aaron.
Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the LORD. You and Aaron are to present your censers also."
So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

Numbers 16:16-18

If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me.
But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
Numbers 16:29-30

As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart
and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them,
with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions.
They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
Numbers 16:31-33

And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
Numbers 16:35

To stand against the Lord and to call upon Him is a dangerous thing to do, as if one
stands with the Lord while ones brother is evil and outcast.

So many have taken this as their stand, so risk it all, based on their understanding of
scripture and judgement. Like Korah, they seal their own fate before anyone can help
them.

Unfortunately Paul warns the corinthians

A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.
1 Corinthians 11:28-31


We are called to love one another, but it appears that this is just too much for some,
while claiming they know Christ, unbridled abuse can be metered out.
 
Anyone

who

lives on

milk,

being still an infant,

is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.


But solid food is for the mature,
who by constant use
have
trained
themselves to
distinguish

good from evil

Hebrews 5:13-14
 
valleyofdecision said:
John 15 & Luke 13:6-9 says if we are in him, that is the only way we bear fruit and because we are in him and only in him we will, bear fruit. If you are in Christ you will bear fruit and it will remain, because the only way we can bear fruit is through the incorruptible seed. The fruit is after salvation and not a proof of salvation, but proof of a changed life after taking the free gift of salvation and gift of imputed righteousness.

I see the context of Matt 10:40-43 a bit different than about salvation.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. [SUP]41 [/SUP]He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. [SUP]42 [/SUP]And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.”

I take this to mean that anyone who gives one of Jesus' followers cold cup of water will be rewarded. Not sure if the reward their means eternal life or not because of the context of the preceding verses. I am not sure that Matt 10:42 is also on track with Matt 25:35 I can see why you would say this and have heard this interpretation before, but I cannot see it in the context of the other verses.
Click to expand...


Everything I said is based upon biblical examples....David for one...a saved man after God's own heart.....

a. He speaks of his salvation in the present tense
b. He had wonderful works of faith <--Goliath, the wars, the Psalms he wrote for worship etc....
c. He also had evil sinful works <---Bathsheba, Uriah, Numbering the People
d. He had acts off faith <---Worshipped God even in spite of the death of his son (Bathsheba)
e. As a youth he was faithful, on fire and served faithfully
f. As he aged he tripped up numerous times in SIN
g. He paid the price in chastisement for his sins in his physical life as evidenced by the Psalms, an the word of God

Then you have people like Daniel who is recorded in the bible as one of three men that if it were possible they would be delivered by their own righteousness and not one sin is recorded even though he confessed his sins in prayer....Or JOB who sinned not with his lips and was a faithful man of God with any wonderful works that testified to his faithfulness and salvation

Then you have the Corinthian fornicator who is cut lose from the Corinthian assembly for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved....

It is faith and faith alone that saves....after that...every deed, word or work of a saved child of God will be rewarded (misthos<--pay or wages) accordingly and we can see by the bible and the men and women of the bible that they will have various works of every flavor and or type.....that was my point...and.....TO SAY that ONE will not be SAVED until JESUS sees their works....IS FALSE and foreign to the bible.....
 
NoNameMcgee said:
i know you like to use one verse at a time

but the whole bible works in harmony ralph

praise God for opening my eyes

in context

its speaking to those who arent His sheep offending His sheep and the seriousness of these offenses

what does He do to His sheep ralph?


He chastens them....

they dont go into hellfire

what happens when His sheep go astray?

finish the verse

He goes to collect them


an unbeliever - lets say he uses his hand to punch one who is born of God...

ohhhh its better if he were to cut his hand off

or looks upon a daughter of God with lust

he would be better to pluck his eye out

but if you are His

He will chasten you

and come to grab you

one way or another

you fail again to understand context
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New International Version 1984 Romans 11:13-24 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
 
dcontroversal said:
Everything I said is based upon biblical examples....David for one...a saved man after God's own heart.....

a. He speaks of his salvation in the present tense
b. He had wonderful works of faith <--Goliath, the wars, the Psalms he wrote for worship etc....
c. He also had evil sinful works <---Bathsheba, Uriah, Numbering the People
d. He had acts off faith <---Worshipped God even in spite of the death of his son (Bathsheba)
e. As a youth he was faithful, on fire and served faithfully
f. As he aged he tripped up numerous times in SIN
g. He paid the price in chastisement for his sins in his physical life as evidenced by the Psalms, an the word of God

Then you have people like Daniel who is recorded in the bible as one of three men that if it were possible they would be delivered by their own righteousness and not one sin is recorded even though he confessed his sins in prayer....Or JOB who sinned not with his lips and was a faithful man of God with any wonderful works that testified to his faithfulness and salvation

Then you have the Corinthian fornicator who is cut lose from the Corinthian assembly for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved....

It is faith and faith alone that saves....after that...every deed, word or work of a saved child of God will be rewarded (misthos<--pay or wages) accordingly and we can see by the bible and the men and women of the bible that they will have various works of every flavor and or type.....that was my point...and.....TO SAY that ONE will not be SAVED until JESUS sees their works....IS FALSE and foreign to the bible.....
Click to expand...

I see no disagreement with this or you. Thanks for pointing out the OT saints were not saved by the law, but by grace through faith. Some people miss that.
 
BillG said:
If that is true then quite frankly I'm gutted.
I truly am. Went out on limb for someone, someone who showed compassion when I opened up and he Pm'd me.


When I revealed that I was lambasted.
It seems maybe the lambasting was in order.

I never ever want to make it personal, attack another person.

Yet know I feel like I'm in no man's land.
Maybe I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm weak.

Not sure where to go next.

Not looking for sympathy or backup.
Just saying what I feel now.

Will I still walk with such a person?
At this moment yes.
I have never endorsed false doctrine, never will.
Just want to see people set free.

Oh well.
Click to expand...

youre far from weak brother

i love your approach

maybe this time your words fell on ears that dont hear


but God has used you as one of the pieces to break me from the same doctrine he currently pushes


i thank God for you being you

(a very useful and versatile member of the body of Christ)
 
Budman said:
You can't accept the fact that once a person is saved, nothing we do, or not do, can separate us from God, nothing in all creation (Romans 8:31-39). Because salvation is based entirely on Jesus, and not on us in any way.
Click to expand...
Heb 10 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SUP]d[/SUP] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[SUP]e[/SUP]31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NLT
26Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.27There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. 30For we know the one who said,“I will take revenge.I will pay them back.”[SUP]h[/SUP]He also said,“The LORD will judge his own people.”[SUP]i[/SUP]31It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NASB 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Even more clearly than in Hebrews 6:4-6 the state described is one of wilful and continued sin, which is the result and the expression of apostasy from Christ. It is not, “If we fall under temptation and commit sin;” but, “If we are sinning wilfully.” The descriptive words are few as compared with those of the former passage, but they teach the same lesson. Not merely the “knowledge” but the “full knowledge” (Romans 1:28) of the truth has been received by those to whom the writer here makes reference; they have been “sanctified in the blood of the covenant” (Hebrews 10:29).

Yep, salvation is about what Jesus did, but remember, Jesus is still in charge of that, and He is still judge.
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
 
NoNameMcgee said:
youre far from weak brother

i love your approach

maybe this time your words fell on ears that dont hear


but God has used you as one of the pieces to break me from the same doctrine he currently pushes


i thank God for you being you

(a very useful and versatile member of the body of Christ)
Click to expand...

People blame God for so much He didn't do.

It seems you are deserving of your destiny.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ellicott

Always good to know who the commentator is...cause sometimes they do not get it right. :)


Speak2Me said:
Heb 10 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SUP]d[/SUP] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[SUP]e[/SUP]31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NLT
26Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.27There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. 28For anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us. 30For we know the one who said,“I will take revenge.I will pay them back.”[SUP]h[/SUP]He also said,“The LORD will judge his own people.”[SUP]i[/SUP]31It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NASB 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Even more clearly than in Hebrews 6:4-6 the state described is one of wilful and continued sin, which is the result and the expression of apostasy from Christ. It is not, “If we fall under temptation and commit sin;” but, “If we are sinning wilfully.” The descriptive words are few as compared with those of the former passage, but they teach the same lesson. Not merely the “knowledge” but the “full knowledge” (Romans 1:28) of the truth has been received by those to whom the writer here makes reference; they have been “sanctified in the blood of the covenant” (Hebrews 10:29).

Yep, salvation is about what Jesus did, but remember, Jesus is still in charge of that, and He is still judge.
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Click to expand...
 
LightLoveHope said:
Anyone

who

lives on

milk,

being still an infant,

is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.


But solid food is for the mature,
who by constant use
have
trained
themselves to
distinguish

good from evil

Hebrews 5:13-14
Click to expand...
t5ywshebrews51314.jpg
 
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