Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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R
You think my theology is messed up because it doesn't match what you have been taught. I am aware of how it boggles the mind to see how far the church is from what the Bible actually says. So you are quite correct, it's mind boggling how what the church teaches and what the Bible teaches is so different. You are using an accurate description.
E
wow man, We look at people. Not Christ? Is paul the head? Peter? James? John? Last I heard, Jesus was the head. Let God give credit where credit is due, Let us look to God.
The problem with most people is they are men followers not God followers. They get to the point they blindly follow the MAN, and in aspects where the MAN happens to get a doctrine wrong, they follow they wrong doctrine. and are led away form God in that point, which could lead to other areas of danger,
Out goal is to be serving God, He said he would place us in his yoke, and he would lead is, and when we do, our burden becomes lite, It is not by following men, it is by following God and allowing GOD to lead us.
Men can help GUIDE us, and God has put men in areas of leadership/ But he NEVR told us to blindly follow these men (or women)
N
ive posted this now 4 times i believe
many of those you argue with ralph
agree with me on this
the reason you dont
TO ME seems like you think it also takes works to justify a man
not "only" by grace through faith
you add to this
otherwise we would be of one mind here
you also dont seem to agree that
1 Peter 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
________
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
believers SHOULD INDEED be confident im this
you seem to be offended by "not by works"
even though its clear as day that we arent saved by works
if you truely want to encourage good works to ALREADY SAVED brothers and sisters
theres a better way to do it than impute what you think they believe over their actual beliefs when you talk to them
with sly
underhanded
and snarky remarks
i forgive you
also ive been snarky to you
please forgive me
but no one here thinks the Holy spirit wont provide fruit to those born of God
even though many have implied that WRONGLY
E
I have been gone for a few days due to work, It is sad to see you are still misunderstanding what people say, ( I forget what number you are on now) and attack senselessly things you do not understand. I think it is prey obvious you are not a new member, Wish to confess who you are? Or continue in sin?
"Only faith in the forgiveness of God" can be misunderstood. It is faith in God Himself and Christ Himself, and what Christ accomplished in His death, burial, and resurrection. Without that there could be no forgiveness. God could only be merciful to sinners AFTER His righteousness and justice were fully satisfied.
And because they were fully satisfied, Christ is called THE PROPITIATION for the sins of the whole world. So faith in Christ is what saves the sinner, and as a result of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, sinners are saved by grace through faith. But we should be very clear that without repentance there is no remission of sins.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19).
And because they were fully satisfied, Christ is called THE PROPITIATION for the sins of the whole world. So faith in Christ is what saves the sinner, and as a result of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, sinners are saved by grace through faith. But we should be very clear that without repentance there is no remission of sins.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19).
Once again you miss or disregard my point. So let me state it again.
We are called to be imitators of Jesus.
Notice imitators of Jesus and not church leaders, or other people.
There is nothing wrong with looking up to a spiritual father/mother.
If we have one then this leads to accountability.
However it can and does often times lead to reliability.
Reliability on their faith and not our own.
That's why we should not put them on a pedastool and that is why any one who is walking alongside someone else should be wise and astute to ensure that they counsel a person to establish their own faith in Jesus and as a result being imitators of Jesus and not the one walking with them.
Furthermore it's not a problem for someone counseling to empathise and acknowledge that they are not perfect and still a WIP.
Now let's go back to what you said to me.
I am grieved how quickly you dismiss the work Christ has done in your life,
how weak and tossed around in the sea that you are no example for others
to be inspired by. Why do you disown the work you say God has done in
your heart like it is nothing, you are like any other sinner, not worthy to be
listened to or regarded, a hypocrite who fails at too many levels to be a help.
Firstly I never said I dismiss the work Christ has done in my life.
You know from my previous posts as do others here that I have often shared what Jesus has done in my life.
I never never disowned his works he has done in me.
Then you say
Maybe this is the level of church ministry you are into. I do not recognise it
unfortunately, and would never be part of church with such unspecified standards
And Bill, I did not mean to suggest you personally were in any role, because I
do not know you or your background.
Interesting.
You suggest or think or know I am in ministry in my church, the church which you lambast in your first quote above.
Then you say, I did not mean to suggest you personally were in any role.
Then you say
But Paul puts a model for leaders and how they are to behave. Or is this part of the
bible been excluded in your version and it would be evil to suggest these standards and
encouragements are of the Lord?
Obviously I have a different Bible than you, cause I have parts missing and also suggest that I am evil based on your assumptions in the first quote above. If not by word definitely by inference.
Finally be very careful and very careful indeed not to come across as
Luke 18:11-12
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
We are called to be imitators of Jesus.
Notice imitators of Jesus and not church leaders, or other people.
There is nothing wrong with looking up to a spiritual father/mother.
If we have one then this leads to accountability.
However it can and does often times lead to reliability.
Reliability on their faith and not our own.
That's why we should not put them on a pedastool and that is why any one who is walking alongside someone else should be wise and astute to ensure that they counsel a person to establish their own faith in Jesus and as a result being imitators of Jesus and not the one walking with them.
Furthermore it's not a problem for someone counseling to empathise and acknowledge that they are not perfect and still a WIP.
Now let's go back to what you said to me.
I am grieved how quickly you dismiss the work Christ has done in your life,
how weak and tossed around in the sea that you are no example for others
to be inspired by. Why do you disown the work you say God has done in
your heart like it is nothing, you are like any other sinner, not worthy to be
listened to or regarded, a hypocrite who fails at too many levels to be a help.
Firstly I never said I dismiss the work Christ has done in my life.
You know from my previous posts as do others here that I have often shared what Jesus has done in my life.
I never never disowned his works he has done in me.
Then you say
Maybe this is the level of church ministry you are into. I do not recognise it
unfortunately, and would never be part of church with such unspecified standards
And Bill, I did not mean to suggest you personally were in any role, because I
do not know you or your background.
Interesting.
You suggest or think or know I am in ministry in my church, the church which you lambast in your first quote above.
Then you say, I did not mean to suggest you personally were in any role.
Then you say
But Paul puts a model for leaders and how they are to behave. Or is this part of the
bible been excluded in your version and it would be evil to suggest these standards and
encouragements are of the Lord?
Obviously I have a different Bible than you, cause I have parts missing and also suggest that I am evil based on your assumptions in the first quote above. If not by word definitely by inference.
Finally be very careful and very careful indeed not to come across as
Luke 18:11-12
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 2:19-22
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Colossians 3:12-14
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, may we bring glory to His wonderful name by the
walk we walk, deeds we do and praise we bring to His name.
He is worthy as the angels declare
In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Revelation 5:12-13
Glory to God in the highest, for He is the great King.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, in Him we have the victory
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 2:19-22
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Colossians 3:12-14
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, may we bring glory to His wonderful name by the
walk we walk, deeds we do and praise we bring to His name.
He is worthy as the angels declare
In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Revelation 5:12-13
Glory to God in the highest, for He is the great King.
Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, in Him we have the victory
We have escaped like a bird out of the fowler's snare; the snare has been broken, and we have escaped.
Our help is in the name of the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth
Psalm 124:7-8
The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all;
he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken
Psalm 34:18-20
But their swords will pierce their own hearts, and their bows will be broken.
Better the little that the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked;
for the power of the wicked will be broken, but the LORD upholds the righteous.
Psalm 37:15-17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
In your good pleasure make Zion prosper; build up the walls of Jerusalem.
Psalm 51:17-18
Scorn has broken my heart and has left me helpless; I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found none.
They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap.
Psalm 69:20-22
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone '?
Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
Luke 20:16-20
A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
John 19:30-38
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.
Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
James 5:16-18
Our help is in the name of the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth
Psalm 124:7-8
The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all;
he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken
Psalm 34:18-20
But their swords will pierce their own hearts, and their bows will be broken.
Better the little that the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked;
for the power of the wicked will be broken, but the LORD upholds the righteous.
Psalm 37:15-17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
In your good pleasure make Zion prosper; build up the walls of Jerusalem.
Psalm 51:17-18
Scorn has broken my heart and has left me helpless; I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found none.
They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap.
Psalm 69:20-22
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"
Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone '?
Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
Luke 20:16-20
A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
John 19:30-38
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.
Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
James 5:16-18
As log as he keeps spewing that one NEEDS works to be saved he/she will never be able to see the free eternal gift of grace....no matter how he/she dices it.....to say one must have works to be saved preaches a works based false gospel.....HE is exactly what Jesus describes as those who say, "Lord, Lord have we not done many wonderful works in your name...." I.E. LOOK AT ALL MY WORKS LORD....No difference.....zero, nadda, none, zilch....SAME dogma, same result
Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD.
Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart.
They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways.
You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.
Oh, that my ways were steadfast in obeying your decrees!
Then I would not be put to shame when I consider all your commands.
I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.
I will obey your decrees; do not utterly forsake me.
How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.
I seek you with all my heart; do not let me stray from your commands.
I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.
Praise be to you, O LORD; teach me your decrees.
With my lips I recount all the laws that come from your mouth.
I rejoice in following your statutes as one rejoices in great riches.
I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.
I delight in your decrees; I will not neglect your word.
Do good to your servant, and I will live; I will obey your word.
Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law.
I am a stranger on earth; do not hide your commands from me.
My soul is consumed with longing for your laws at all times.
You rebuke the arrogant, who are cursed and who stray from your commands.
Remove from me scorn and contempt, for I keep your statutes.
Though rulers sit together and slander me, your servant will meditate on your decrees.
Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors.
I am laid low in the dust; preserve my life according to your word.
I recounted my ways and you answered me; teach me your decrees.
Let me understand the teaching of your precepts; then I will meditate on your wonders.
My soul is weary with sorrow; strengthen me according to your word.
Psalm 119:1-28
Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart.
They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways.
You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.
Oh, that my ways were steadfast in obeying your decrees!
Then I would not be put to shame when I consider all your commands.
I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.
I will obey your decrees; do not utterly forsake me.
How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.
I seek you with all my heart; do not let me stray from your commands.
I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.
Praise be to you, O LORD; teach me your decrees.
With my lips I recount all the laws that come from your mouth.
I rejoice in following your statutes as one rejoices in great riches.
I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.
I delight in your decrees; I will not neglect your word.
Do good to your servant, and I will live; I will obey your word.
Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law.
I am a stranger on earth; do not hide your commands from me.
My soul is consumed with longing for your laws at all times.
You rebuke the arrogant, who are cursed and who stray from your commands.
Remove from me scorn and contempt, for I keep your statutes.
Though rulers sit together and slander me, your servant will meditate on your decrees.
Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors.
I am laid low in the dust; preserve my life according to your word.
I recounted my ways and you answered me; teach me your decrees.
Let me understand the teaching of your precepts; then I will meditate on your wonders.
My soul is weary with sorrow; strengthen me according to your word.
Psalm 119:1-28
And for the encore:
Just waiting for the cock to crow thrice..
Just waiting for the cock to crow thrice..
I truly am. Went out on limb for someone, someone who showed compassion when I opened up and he Pm'd me.
When I revealed that I was lambasted.
It seems maybe the lambasting was in order.
I never ever want to make it personal, attack another person.
Yet know I feel like I'm in no man's land.
Maybe I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm weak.
Not sure where to go next.
Not looking for sympathy or backup.
Just saying what I feel now.
Will I still walk with such a person?
At this moment yes.
I have never endorsed false doctrine, never will.
Just want to see people set free.
Oh well.