Not By Works

[Budman]

I wasn't going to say his name, but I've changed my mind. Budman believes this.

Believes what - specifically?

 

[Ralph-]

Believes what - specifically?

That you can continue in sin because grace has abounded through Christ ('once saved always saved' being the reason why).

You CAN'T do that because that would be showing you to not be born again according to John:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin"-1 John 3:9

Born again people are growing out and away from sin, not living and continuing in it unchanged. Their changing life showing that they have the grace of God in salvation. The unchanged life shows one to NOT have the grace of God in salvation.

So works do matter. If you have dead faith when Jesus comes back you don't have the faith that saves that you think you do. You will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.” [/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

btw bill im not claiming you misunderstand

its just we went over this recently


and it seemed to be used to say a born again believer can fall away....


that is not true

and those with ears to hear should hear this

Born again believers do fall away.

[FONT=&quot]1tim 1;18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.[/FONT]
heb 6;4 [FONT=&quot]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.[/FONT]

 

[stonesoffire]

That you can continue in sin because grace has abounded through Christ ('once saved always saved' being the reason why).

You CAN'T do that because that would be showing you to not be born again according to John:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin"-1 John 3:9

Born again people are growing out and away from sin, not living and continuing in it unchanged. Their changing life showing that they have the grace of God in salvation. The unchanged life shows one to NOT have the grace of God in salvation.

So works do matter. If you have dead faith when Jesus comes back you don't have the faith that saves that you think you do. You will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The new creation is not about changing Ralph. There is an actual work of God within us that we know we are not the same person we used to be, immediately after receiving forgiveness. We then learn that what we were, died that day by the action of the blood sacrifice, and the newness we experienced is our spirit lifed by the Spirit of Christ, and we begin our walk as a spiritual being.

We die to sin. Raised up again in newness of life. Ressurection life. Works come from our new life in Christ Jesus. So we aren't growing out and away from sin.

The day we were born again, we begin our growth in eternal life. Sins are not satisfaction anymore, if they ever were. We may be tempted, but we learn to overcome.

Nobody has any rights to judge and condemn Gods children. He eventually Himself will rise to defend.

 

[stonesoffire]

Born again believers do fall away.

1tim 1;18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
heb 6;4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This is written to Hebrew Christians. Telling them not to return to trusting in law. There's no more sacrifices in the law to take away sin.

In Timothy, it's exhortation to stay in faith of what they heard.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

to those who misunderstand hebrews 6 and take it out of context




Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.






Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

bump for david

 

[AbigailZeke]

I hope you don't mind me going off topic every now and then. But I have another testimony!

So... I mentioned about losing my job in this thread about a couple of months ago (I think). Recession. I was anxious and worried for quite some time. Every now and then God reminded me that He who did not spare His Son and delivered Him up for us all, will also, along with him, give us all things and that He clothed the lilies of the field, how much more me xD

Well, like I told my other friends, before I even knew what to pray for (because I was at a loss when I heard the news and had no idea where to start) - Jesus already provided a way!

I got recommended by my Manager to our mothership company (2nd largest telco in Singapore) and had my interview last week with the boss of my future boss - who happens to be a Christian too and goes to my church. She read my blog and said she's glad to have someone of the same faith join her team. OKAY. It obviously had nothing to do with me. It's the favour of God!! What's more, not only do I get to keep my job (in a sense, because the new position is very similar to my old one and I already know some of the people), the office is only a 5min walk from my old one (25 min walk from my place), which means I don't have to move (which was something I was also a bit worried about because I really really love my place - it was another answered prayer, long story though).

Being a foreigner here in Singapore means, I need a job to legally, continue my part time studies and be able to pay for it (also so I don't starve to death). So this is kind of a big deal. I am so overwhelmed to say the least. The bible is right. He will never abandon His children. We are loved and cared for!

 

[dcontroversal]

Dang DC, I almost feel sorry for Ralph. You are tearing him to shreds!

At the end of the day it is not my intention per se.....only to open eyes.....and my post is valid, yet 10 to 1 it will be rejected because he/she cannot accept correction because it goes contrary to his/her belief....like the Methodist I witnessed to in 1990....He believed that God would not send a decent moral man who had done good works to hell and his exact words..."If it "my belief system" was good enough for my daddy and granddaddy then it is good enough for me" At the end of the day, the verb tense is clear and in both cases shows a future event or a series of habitual future events concerning sin are covered under grace that is bounding ahead of our sin.....people need to get through their heads that God deals with sin differently in a believer than he does in one who is lost.....The blood of JESUS continually cleanses us and covers us as God's grace bounds ahead and deals with sin in our lives.....this is not an excuse to keep on sinning or live as we choose, but rather a permanent position of grace afforded unto believers........

 

[dcontroversal]

That you can continue in sin because grace has abounded through Christ ('once saved always saved' being the reason why).

You CAN'T do that because that would be showing you to not be born again according to John:

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin"-1 John 3:9

Born again people are growing out and away from sin, not living and continuing in it unchanged. Their changing life showing that they have the grace of God in salvation. The unchanged life shows one to NOT have the grace of God in salvation.

So works do matter. If you have dead faith when Jesus comes back you don't have the faith that saves that you think you do. You will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You absolutely cannot grasp the fact that saved people who falter in their growth and who are worldly or sinful are still dealt with as sons and CHASTIZED by GOD...up to and including the forfeiture of their physical lives..it is the SPIRIT that has been born again from above by INCORRUPTABLE seed and a saved man still PACKS the dead body of SIN that is weak and PRONE to sin.....the verb tense above proves you wrong and YET you still cannot be open to the word and in pride and defiance still oppose the truth to your own hurt and or demise.

 

[dcontroversal]

Born again believers do fall away.

1tim 1;18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
heb 6;4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

A) NEAR unto is NOT IS
B) Saved SO AS BY FIRE "1st Corinthians 3" and saved is saved

 

[dcontroversal]

The new creation is not about changing Ralph. There is an actual work of God within us that we know we are not the same person we used to be, immediately after receiving forgiveness. We then learn that what we were, died that day by the action of the blood sacrifice, and the newness we experienced is our spirit lifed by the Spirit of Christ, and we begin our walk as a spiritual being.

We die to sin. Raised up again in newness of life. Ressurection life. Works come from our new life in Christ Jesus. So we aren't growing out and away from sin.

The day we were born again, we begin our growth in eternal life. Sins are not satisfaction anymore, if they ever were. We may be tempted, but we learn to overcome.

Nobody has any rights to judge and condemn Gods children. He eventually Himself will rise to defend.

AMEN.....He/She cannot grasp the fact that believers still sin, yet they will not live a continual lifestyle of sin.....sanctification in a believer's life is an ongoing process of growth, stagnation, failures, set backs, more growth etc.....and David is a prime example...a saved child of God after od's own heart yet through his life he struggled, failed, sinned, and yet rose up, worshipped God, paid the price physically (chastisement) but was never cast away or lost his position before GOD....this is exactly what many cannot grasp and in their blindness will set themselves up as right while condemning all who understand this process and positioning of grace....

IN THE GRACE YOU ARE, having been SAVED "past tense" BY FAITH and that NOT of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD and NOT OF WORKS lest any man boast "or brag"..............

GRACE is a place of positioning for a believer as evidenced by the above verse and Romans 5:1-3 and by faith we are saved, born again of incorruptible seed and PLACED into that position by GOD.........

 

[mailmandan]

A) NEAR unto is NOT IS
B) Saved SO AS BY FIRE "1st Corinthians 3" and saved is saved

Amen! Also, the believer may suffer loss (of reward) but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. The believer does not burn in the flames, but escapes through the flames and is saved. Works that are wood, hay and stubble are burned, but not the believer.

 

[dcontroversal]

I hope you don't mind me going off topic every now and then. But I have another testimony!

So... I mentioned about losing my job in this thread about a couple of months ago (I think). Recession. I was anxious and worried for quite some time. Every now and then God reminded me that He who did not spare His Son and delivered Him up for us all, will also, along with him, give us all things and that He clothed the lilies of the field, how much more me xD

Well, like I told my other friends, before I even knew what to pray for (because I was at a loss when I heard the news and had no idea where to start) - Jesus already provided a way!

I got recommended by my Manager to our mothership company (2nd largest telco in Singapore) and had my interview last week with the boss of my future boss - who happens to be a Christian too and goes to my church. She read my blog and said she's glad to have someone of the same faith join her team. OKAY. It obviously had nothing to do with me. It's the favour of God!! What's more, not only do I get to keep my job (in a sense, because the new position is very similar to my old one and I already know some of the people), the office is only a 5min walk from my old one (25 min walk from my place), which means I don't have to move (which was something I was also a bit worried about because I really really love my place - it was another answered prayer, long story though).

Being a foreigner here in Singapore means, I need a job to legally, continue my part time studies and be able to pay for it (also so I don't starve to death). So this is kind of a big deal. I am so overwhelmed to say the least. The bible is right. He will never abandon His children. We are loved and cared for!

AMEN....God is so far ahead of us and paving the way if you will....

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen! Also, the believer may suffer loss (of reward) but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. The believer does not burn in the flames, but escapes through the flames and is saved. Works that are wood, hay and stubble are burned, but not the believer.

AMEN.......wonderful truth rejected by the workers for, sinless perfectionists and law keepers "not"

 

[Ralph-]

So we aren't growing out and away from sin.

"speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ"-Ephesians 4:15

Nobody has any rights to judge and condemn Gods children.

What we have is the right to discernment.

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."-1 John 3:10

I don't have to consider anyone a brother or sister just because they say they are one. The Bible tells us how we can know. John says it's obvious. How obvious is our salvation? We have to examine ourselves. That way we'll know with certainty whether or not we are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns.

Certainty does not come from a once saved always saved doctrine. The Bible says certainty comes from being like him in this life. So 'make your calling and election sure' (that is, be sure of it). Walk in the Spirit and do what Jesus did. Then you will have no fear and uncertainty about the day of his return, and you will not be deceived by a once saved always saved doctrine into thinking you're saved when you're really not.

 

[Ralph-]

Amen! Also, the believer may suffer loss (of reward) but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. The believer does not burn in the flames, but escapes through the flames and is saved. Works that are wood, hay and stubble are burned, but not the believer.

The context of 1 Corinthians 3:5-11 is REWARDS, not salvation. You can have no works of service and still be saved, but you can not have no works of moral righteousness and still be saved.

You yourself point out that the dead faith in James 2 is no faith at all. If Paul is saying the person who has nothing but his salvation with no works of righteousness attached (dead faith) he will be saved nonetheless, then he is directly contradicting both John and James who say the person with no change of life is NOT saved.

The passage is about REWARDS for works of service in the body, and building, and field of God. That is what 'work' has no bearing on your salvation. But your moral obedience, that does have bearing on your salvation because if you do not have that obedience in growing measure you show yourself to have a dead faith, the faith that can not save.

 

[Ralph-]

AMEN.......wonderful truth rejected by the workers for, sinless perfectionists and law keepers "not"

The passage is about REWARDS, a wonderful truth rejected by those who are taking false confidence in a doctrine that says they can arrive at the judgment with dead faith and they will still be saved because salvation is not by works, and because you can not lose your salvation.

 

[Ralph-]

He...cannot grasp the fact that believers still sin, yet they will not live a continual lifestyle of sin

You must be blind. I've been saying this over and over and over again. Genuinely saved people do not live in sin. They are growing out of it. That shows they are born again and ready to meet Jesus.

He...cannot grasp the fact that believers still sin, yet they will not live a continual lifestyle of sin

What happened to your insistence that you do not have to have works to be saved-1 Corinthians 3:5-11?

You keep talking out of both sides of your mouth. Make up your mind.

 

[dcontroversal]

The passage is about REWARDS, a wonderful truth rejected by those who are taking false confidence in a doctrine that says they can arrive at the judgment with dead faith and they will still be saved because salvation is not by works, and because you can not lose your salvation.

You can forget it.....regardless...those whose works are entirely burned are still saved as evidenced by the scriptures.....why? BECAUSE it is faith that saves not works....and the fact that you cannot accept truth when given, as evidence by above, continually speaks to your tainted view.....

end of story......