Not By Works

[Ralph-]

you, who teach we must maintain a certain level of holiness by our works to be saved.

No, you walk in holiness BECAUSE you are saved. No increasing walk in holiness, no salvation has occurred. You don't seem to have been able to even understand the argument yet, let alone prove it wrong.

if you want to strive to be perfect, you have to be as perfect as God to be saved.

Right, 'to be saved'. Perfection is only required if you are trying to earn your salvation. For already saved people, the Holy Spirit in them is taking them on to perfection. That's why you must be increasing in holiness. If you're not, you do not have the Holy Spirit and aren't born again.

Your human effort, or a combination of your efforts and grace, will not do it.

Everybody knows works do not earn salvation.

The argument is, if you don't have works you are not saved, your unchanged self showing that you are not a new creation growing up into Christ through faith. Only in Christ is one saved. Only in Christ can you do works. Apart from him you can do nothing. Jesus said that, not me.

That's a deflection. Jesus put the nail in the coffin by commanding one to sell all he has and give it to the poor. Have you - will you?

Jesus, again, was teaching if you want to get to heaven by what you do, you'd better go all the way. And none of us can.

If Paul's counsel is a deflection, then guilty as charged. He said the idea was not to put yourself in need while meeting the needs of others. You can't deny he said that.

If you are not already perfect now, you will die in your sins. Period. God isn't going to accept 1/4, or 1/2, or even 3/4 perfection. It's complete perfection or nothing.

Only if you are trying to earn your salvation.
For already saved people the requirement is that you have the Holy Spirit in you. And we know if we have the Holy Spirit in us by if we are a new creation growing up into Christ, not stuck in our old unsaved, unchanged selves.

Wow. You just called Jesus a liar.

Let me quote the whole thing: "Then they asked Him; "what must we do to do the works that God requires?" Jesus answered, " The work of God is this; to believe in the One He has sent." (John 6:28-29)

Period. That's it. That's all. End of requirements.

And we know if we have satisfied that requirement by if we have works. The person who says they know Christ in salvation but who does not do what is right and does not love his neighbor is a liar. John said so. Do you want to argue with John?

Sinking in yet?

 

[LightLoveHope]

non of this says “live like jesus” and you will not have fear,

it would instead say

“TRUST IN JESUS” and you will not have fear

bekieve it or not. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

1. Trusts in self and our ability to live

2. Trusts in jesus to live in us and his graced and mercy.

I fear when people rely on self. And not placen it all at Gods feet.

Greetings eternally-gratefull,

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

The verse above connects punishment and fear.
In Christ there is no fear of punishment because we walk in love.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
2 Corinthians 5:10-11

Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.
The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread
Isaiah 8:12-13

"Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord.
1 Peter 3:14-15


In Christ there is no separation of self from Him, we are in Christ and He is in us.

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us
1 John 3:23-24

We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:19-20

 

[walknlight]

2Tim 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

galatians 2

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[BillG]

Make stuff up? Jesus cast out fear.

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 3:17-19

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

Jesus is Gods perfect love, perfect love drives out fear, Jesus in our hearts does
cast out fear, Amen.

Dear brother, I am blessed by this insight.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
1 Corinthians 15:54

Amen, Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to men on earth.

And that is why EG responded as he did.
I posted the same from John as did.

The response to that from the person I quoted it to was

"No it does say being in Christ is what casts or fear. It says being like Jesus is what casts out fear.

 

[BillG]

"Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."
gen 19:15

These people have no fear of God, the way they embrace sin, and reject Gods word, love and
righteousness while claiming they are the true saved, and God will not touch them, shows how
deluded they have become.

Who are these people you are accusing?
Accusing of embracing sin, rejecting Gods word, love and righteousness and claiming to be saved. Who are such deluded people.

You obviously think it's people on here as you have not taken the time in the above post what you are saying and to whom or whether stating what the Bible states about the people you are referring to.

Your Bible verse quoted makes no sense to the rest of your post.

So please clarify.

 

[BillG]

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matthew 5:43-45

Jesus loved Judas, and treated him the same as all the other disciples, so much so they
could not tell Judas was going to betray Jesus, and Jesus knew. That is real love.

In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Matt 5:16

Posted the above many times myself when it comes to obeying Jesus concerning others and walking in love.

 

[LightLoveHope]

And that is why EG responded as he did.
I posted the same from John as did.

The response to that from the person I quoted it to was

"No it does say being in Christ is what casts or fear. It says being like Jesus is what casts out fear.

Hi Bill, Blessings to you,

Thankyou for this.
Being in Christ removes fear. Walking like Jesus means there is no reason to fear.
Are not both true?

It appears the apostles faced many who had abandoned fear, needed to be handed over
to satan for a rebuke. Fear is no bad thing if anything you touch will kill you.
Handling scripture with fear and respect is a good place for me to start.
So I do not see a problem here.

Is the problem not fear but terror and intimidation that some have grown up with?
I wonder because this has never been part of my life.

I know people who have panic attacks, but this also is not part of my experience.
I have prayed with people who are in fear, and seen the Lord bring peace there through the Holy Spirit.
I know His presence is full of grace and peace, love and hope,

Peace be with you.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Who are these people you are accusing?
Accusing of embracing sin, rejecting Gods word, love and righteousness and claiming to be saved. Who are such deluded people.

You obviously think it's people on here as you have not taken the time in the above post what you are saying and to whom or whether stating what the Bible states about the people you are referring to.

Your Bible verse quoted makes no sense to the rest of your post.

So please clarify.

Thankyou for this Bill.

You are right, there maybe people here who are doing what scripture describes.
In the end, it is the Lord who convicts not me.

A person who takes Gods word, makes it their own, yet hardens their hearts, does not acknowledge
Gods work in others and the blessing He gives, continues in evil passions, deludes themselves.

We all can do this. We all need reminding of the dangers, that our walk is pure, blameless and holy,
abounding in grace and love.

Our only security is to rush into the arms of God with a humble, meek, repentant open heart, trusting
in His word and leading. Do we feel secure enough to disregard any part of Gods eternal revelation?
If we do, we need to humble ourselves and walk in gratitude and faith, He will reveal in time the answer
we desire.

Join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God,
who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done
but because of his own purpose and grace.
2 Timothy 1:8-10

Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Timothy 2:14

 

[LightLoveHope]

Who are these people you are accusing?
Accusing of embracing sin, rejecting Gods word, love and righteousness and claiming to be saved. Who are such deluded people.

You obviously think it's people on here as you have not taken the time in the above post what you are saying and to whom or whether stating what the Bible states about the people you are referring to.

Your Bible verse quoted makes no sense to the rest of your post.

So please clarify.

The verse is simple. Gods judgement is coming, are we to dance as if we are free and
acceptable or run to the way of the Lord and His protection, because there is no other way.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 6:4-6

The above should worry any person, about the consequences of knowing Christ yet compromising.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

to those who misunderstand hebrews 6 and take it out of context

What about believers?

Some believe that God heardens believers hearts who struggle with sin or have a sin trait they can't overcome.

They reference

Hebrews 6:4-6


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The above should worry any person, about the consequences of knowing Christ yet compromising.

Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

 

[NoNameMcgee]

john 5

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


oh praise Jesus for HIS sacrifice and HIS righteousness


romans 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

to those who misunderstand hebrews 6 and take it out of context




Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.






Philippians 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

btw bill im not claiming you misunderstand

its just we went over this recently


and it seemed to be used to say a born again believer can fall away....


that is not true

and those with ears to hear should hear this

 

[LightLoveHope]

to those who misunderstand hebrews 6 and take it out of context

Heb 6 is about willful rebellion against Christ after knowing Him.
The warning is simple, things change in ones heart.
When one knows spiritual kingdoms, and moves from the Kingdom of light
into the Kingdom of darkness, what is left for one?

Interpretation
It is odd the idea one can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and not be born again.

If they had not had faith and repented, saying if they fall away, they cannot renew
again to repentance, does not work, because the claim is they never repented.

This shows the fear, literal fear of the simple meaning of these verses, rebellion can be
real.

Being open to the word of God is freeing, it defines itself to our hearts, we do not have
to work at it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill, Blessings to you,

Thankyou for this.
Being in Christ removes fear. Walking like Jesus means there is no reason to fear.
Are not both true?

It appears the apostles faced many who had abandoned fear, needed to be handed over
to satan for a rebuke. Fear is no bad thing if anything you touch will kill you.
Handling scripture with fear and respect is a good place for me to start.
So I do not see a problem here.

Is the problem not fear but terror and intimidation that some have grown up with?
I wonder because this has never been part of my life.

I know people who have panic attacks, but this also is not part of my experience.
I have prayed with people who are in fear, and seen the Lord bring peace there through the Holy Spirit.
I know His presence is full of grace and peace, love and hope,

Peace be with you.

Blessings to you LLH.

Thank you for what I consider to be an honest post and you have addressed a couple of issues.
Yes being in Christ removes fear, it should remove fear.
Walking like Jesus means there is no reason to fear, and that should be true as well.

Your sentence "Is the problem not fear but terror and intimidation that some have grown up with?
I wonder because this has never been part of my life?

That hits the nail on the head for many people.

That was my issues.

Upbringing and life's experiences can and do give a very distorted view of God.

Fear and terror and anxiety and depression.

This in their minds leads to not being good enough, not being loved, being smacked about at the slightest mistake (my experience).

In order to be loved, accepted by God then people are told to just do, believe the Bible and so on.
I have to work hard to earn Gods love, be perfect and not sin.
Then when they fail it just adds to the issues. More guilt, more anxiety, more works and it goes on and on. A vicious cycle.

People need healing from the past in order to be set free to walk as Jesus has asked us to.
People need to be taught to forgive their past and those who hurt them.

To forgive is to set the prisoner free, only to realise the prisoner was you.

Given what you have said above, the church needs more people like you.
Willing to come alongside others who fear, and I mean by this, frightened of God will enact their life experiences on them.
The word does bring comfort to our soul, but if the word, Jesus is distorted in your mind all a person will see is the negative when reading the Bible.

When I come alongside people like I was the first thing I say to them is what Jesus says.

John 17:23
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.


God loves you as much as he loves Jesus.

I have to be honest. When I have said that to people, most respond with "Thats not true"
So I then show them the verse.
When they read it, some have said wow and accept it.
Some just cry and ask God, help me to accept it.

Either way it's the start of the process to set someone free.

Free to be loved, forgiven, believe in a loving Father then to walk like him.
The fear is being replaced with love.

That is why I am so passionate when someone says "Fear God to a believer"
Because the person who says that probably had no idea what fear means to the person who they are talking too.

 

[BillG]

btw bill im not claiming you misunderstand

its just we went over this recently


and it seemed to be used to say a born again believer can fall away....


that is not true

and those with ears to hear should hear this

I don't believe they can either.

 

[LightLoveHope]

btw bill im not claiming you misunderstand
its just we went over this recently
and it seemed to be used to say a born again believer can fall away....
that is not true
and those with ears to hear should hear this

Peace be with you.

Who defines what people are capable of in the Lord?
I would say the Lord does.

Why is it so hard to accept if a miracle of revelation can happen, equally a great
fall can also happen. If this was not so, why is there testing? Why is there refining?
Why are there warnings? Why is defilement and failure so important in the word?

Moses was very close to the Lord, yet he failed and received judgement.
I have no authority to declare above Gods word, all I know He judges and His people
receive it. It is not unfair, our only recourse is to walk closely to Him and listen to
His guidance.

I have two goals, follow my Lord and walk in His ways as He changes me.
Men will do as they will do. It is only the sheep who listen, and it is to the Praise of
His Name, that all honor is given. Amen

 

[BillG]

Heb 6 is about willful rebellion against Christ after knowing Him.
The warning is simple, things change in ones heart.
When one knows spiritual kingdoms, and moves from the Kingdom of light
into the Kingdom of darkness, what is left for one?

Interpretation
It is odd the idea one can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit and not be born again.

If they had not had faith and repented, saying if they fall away, they cannot renew
again to repentance, does not work, because the claim is they never repented.

This shows the fear, literal fear of the simple meaning of these verses, rebellion can be
real.

Being open to the word of God is freeing, it defines itself to our hearts, we do not have
to work at it.

Grace and peace to you.

Difficult passage indeed, with many different thoughts on it. Yes rebellion is real.
Even one sin committed is rebellion.
That's what led to the fall.

Yet that first sin had to be atoned for.
And it was on the cross.
The sacrifice of Jesus.

So when we sin as believers we are rebellious.

Yet we look at the sacrifice for our rebellion and forgiveness. That is Jesus.

There is a difference between knowing Jesus and believing in him.
We only have to look at the sheep and the goats.

 

[ElAmor]

galatians 2

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Ephesians 2:11-22 One in Christ Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[BillG]

Ephesians 2:11-22 One in Christ Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

And your point being?