Not By Works

[preacher4truth]

"you shall speak My words to them whether they listen or not, for they are rebellious."-Ezekiel 2:7

Exactly, you don't listen when told of your behavior.

And:

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

 

[Ralph-]

Exactly, you don't listen when told of your behavior.

And:

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great"-Matthew 5:11-12

 

[preacher4truth]

“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great"-Matthew 5:11-12

No one here has accused you falsely or persecuted you for being like Christ. It's a well known sad fact you lie often about what others say on here so that's not exactly like achrist. You live in that sin and have not repented or apologized for it and you've done this to many people on here.

 

[Ralph-]

No one here has accused you falsely or persecuted you for being like Christ. It's a well known sad fact you lie often about what others say on here so that's not exactly like achrist. You live in that sin and have not repented or apologized for it and you've done this to many people on here.

What's happening is you people are so defensive and closed off that you can't hear what I'm saying and instantly hear what I say as affront to you personally and your beliefs. I've even posted quotes of what people have said to show I'm not lying and you STILL can't see I'm not lying.

You are so dead set on hating me and resisting what I say and so that's just the way you've decided it's going to be. You only love those who agree with you. You have zero capacity to love those you perceive to be your enemy. You prove that virtually every time you post. You're a rabid dog. And the sad part is you're a 'preacher4truth'. You're easily the most abusive, abrasive poster in this forum. Dcontroversial isn't even as bad as you. And that's saying a lot.

Oh, and no need to respond. Just put me on ignore. Please. Maybe that will stop your ungodly abuse.

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually Ralphie, you are not agreeing with me on any point.

What you have been essentially and continually promoting underneath all the various statements you have made...... is that a born again person can be unborn again and this will happen because of living in sin.

I have shown you that Paul in Galatians was not stating that.

What you have read into the verse is that those people had lost their salvation because of their lifestyle.

What Paul is actually saying is they never had it, not that they had lost eternal salvation.

From God's point of view you cannot waver from your status of born again (justified) we examine ourselves to make sure we are living in that status because that is the worthy Christian walk.

Or if they do not meet his/her working for standard.........

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul did not write that for anyone who disagrees with the mighty ( wrong ) ralph. it was written primarily toward gays and idol worshipers.

learn some Scripture. in context that is. the Bible is not here for you to take and us it any ( wrong ) way you see fit.

Good luck.......Ralph's version of context below

Context->>>No such thing, does not exist and the bible states what I deem it to state!

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe what you really mean is faith apart from works saves. That is true. And we know who has been saved by faith apart from the merit of works by the fact that their faith is not alone void of works.

The person who says they know God in a faith apart from works salvation who has no works, his faith being alone, does not have the salvation he claims he has. If he remains that way he will be rejected when Jesus comes back. That's why each of us has to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith-2 Corinthians 13:5. If we see that we are not, we need to stop being deceived and fall on the mercy of God and receive grace to become the person who practices righteousness who will inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.


"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."-1 Corinthians 6:9-10


"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them"-Ephesians 5:5-7


Now notice the diligent 'practice' of those who are assured entrance into the kingdom of God.

"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."-2 Peter 1:10-11



"Do not be deceived." "Be all the more diligent." That's not a works gospel.
He who has ears let him hear.

Between you and I......only one deceived....the one who pushes works....that would be you!

 

[dcontroversal]

I think this matters a great deal.

God's word is clear the person who is born again has received an eternal status/gift, not temporal.

Amen.....thank God for eternal security.....

 

[dcontroversal]

No one here has accused you falsely or persecuted you for being like Christ. It's a well known sad fact you lie often about what others say on here so that's not exactly like achrist. You live in that sin and have not repented or apologized for it and you've done this to many people on here.

Amen....and he is not the only one.....seems that most workers for have a knack for embellishing, changing or just flat out lie "bend the truth" on a regular basis without batting an eye......

 

[dcontroversal]

Objective accomplished sir!

(well, at least for me, "Ralph-" is still uptight, angry and insecure)

and lest we forget the plenteous in number that get cast<---pushed and boasted of their wonderful works in the name of Jesus...

 

[dcontroversal]

You're full of yourself, totally self important. You've reached exactly nobody with the above nonsense. Congrats!

Well...PT Barnum did say a sucka was born every minute.....

 

[Budman]

I truly cannot understand those who keep pointing to their works as their measuring stick of holiness.

When one is justified at conversion, that person is declared perfect.

Perfect. Righteous - forever.

Pastor Robert Metevia said, "To trust in Christ plus one's own ability to maintain a certain level of faith is not to trust in Christ alone to complete what He has started, but instead to trust in Christ plus human effort."

Some believers are so proud in "all they do" for the Lord, yet don't realize Jesus did all the works that are required. The works we do only justify us before our fellow human beings, and are the basis for rewards (or lack of) at the Judgment Seat, and that is all.

Like I said before, even an atheist claiming to be a Christian can do more good works than an actual Christian, and people like Ralph would be completely fooled because they look at the outside as proof of true conversion.

Believers will go to heaven when they die no matter what work or lack of work accompanies their faith. The eternal destiny of believers is not threatened by their acts of sin, even if they fall into sin and stay in that condition until they die.

That is what grace is all about. Jesus is our surety (Hebrews 7:22-25). He guarantees the promises of the new covenant by supplying what is needed when we default. He remains faithful to His promises, even when we are faithless (2 Timothy 2:11).

Yet, when we sin we can expect to reap the consequences of our actions. God chastens His children. If He does not - we are not His (Hebrews 12:8). And yet, He will never disown us. He holds us in His hand and nothing in all creation, including ourselves, can remove us. Ever. (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39)

Christians who try to measure up to a standard of obedience will inevitably experience anxiety and fear. They will walk on eggshells, believing they have to "prove" themselves. They will experience a lack of peace and an improper motivation for holy living.

The truth of the matter is, God is already satisfied with the finished work of Christ on the cross. There is nothing we can add to this propitiatory work. We have a righteousness that cannot be improved upon.

As believers, we are now judged by His faith, by His obedience, and by His sinless life.

As Mr Metevia put it; God looks at us through "Jesus colored glasses".

If we hold up our own works as "proof" we are saved, they have become the "filthy rags" of Isaiah 64:6. But if we do good works as we are commanded (Ephesians 2:10) to justify us before men as a means to glorify the Lord (Matthew 5:16), then those works are indeed more precious than silver or gold, and will not be burned up (1 Corinthians 3:15).

Grace is not a license to sin, although we do sin - and will continue to sin. But praise God, all sin, past, present and future, has been washed away by the blood of Jesus, never to be remembered - thrown as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12).

So, when people like Ralph thunder down about "living in sin", I would simply ask them - what sin? Though I sin, I have no sins attributed to me. None I am responsible for. Christ became sin for me, and removed them completely.

 

[Shamah]

Belief

Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."

Works:

Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”

Belief + Works:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

Belief + Works:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[/FONT]

 

[Ralph-]

Believers will go to heaven when they die no matter what work or lack of work accompanies their faith. The eternal destiny of believers is not threatened by their acts of sin, even if they fall into sin and stay in that condition until they die.

That is what grace is all about. Jesus is our surety (Hebrews 7:22-25). He guarantees the promises of the new covenant by supplying what is needed when we default. He remains faithful to His promises, even when we are faithless (2 Timothy 2:11).

Yet, when we sin we can expect to reap the consequences of our actions. God chastens His children. If He does not - we are not His (Hebrews 12:8). And yet, He will never disown us. He holds us in His hand and nothing in all creation, including ourselves, can remove us. Ever. (John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39)

Christians who try to measure up to a standard of obedience will inevitably experience anxiety and fear. They will walk on eggshells, believing they have to "prove" themselves. They will experience a lack of peace and an improper motivation for holy living.

The truth of the matter is, God is already satisfied with the finished work of Christ on the cross. There is nothing we can add to this propitiatory work. We have a righteousness that cannot be improved upon.

As believers, we are now judged by His faith, by His obedience, and by His sinless life.

As Mr Metevia put it; God looks at us through "Jesus colored glasses".

If we hold up our own works as "proof" we are saved, they have become the "filthy rags" of Isaiah 64:6. But if we do good works as we are commanded (Ephesians 2:10) to justify us before men as a means to glorify the Lord (Matthew 5:16), then those works are indeed more precious than silver or gold, and will not be burned up (1 Corinthians 3:15).

Grace is not a license to sin, although we do sin - and will continue to sin. But praise God, all sin, past, present and future, has been washed away by the blood of Jesus, never to be remembered - thrown as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12).

So, when people like Ralph thunder down about "living in sin", I would simply ask them - what sin? Though I sin, I have no sins attributed to me. None I am responsible for. Christ became sin for me, and removed them completely.

You are the new once saved always saved. Not that once saved always saved is the important point. It's not. The issue is you believe that fruitless 'believers' are saved people and will be saved when Jesus comes back. Even though the Bible is clear that fruitless people will be condemned when Jesus returns not saved. Their fruitless lives being the evidence of their unbelief.

This new doctrine believes that grace makes it so they don't have to have works and they will be saved anyway. That's making grace a license to sin whether they can see that or not. Not being able to see that doesn't mean it's not a license to sin. It means you just can't see that it is.

There are many here who should be pooh-poohing this post because they have said over and over that the true believer WILL have works, but they also seem to believe at the same time that you do not have to have works. They will not say a word against what you have said here even though they insist that the true believer will have works. Depending on the discussion they will say you don't have to have works to be saved, i.e. being killed off by God. They speak out of both sides of their mouth. But of course they deny doing that.

We're witnessing in our time a wholesale rejection of the Bible and a falling away from the truth. This is the end for the Christian church. In my opinion we will not recover from this. This is the great falling away before Jesus comes back for his own.

"with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...it will not come unless the apostasy comes first"-2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

The apostasy is here. Up next, the return of Christ.

 

[gb9]

You are the new once saved always saved. Not that once saved always saved is the important point. It's not. The issue is you believe that fruitless 'believers' are saved people and will be saved when Jesus comes back. Even though the Bible is clear that fruitless people will be condemned when Jesus returns not saved. Their fruitless lives being the evidence of their unbelief.

This new doctrine believes that grace makes it so they don't have to have works and they will be saved anyway. That's making grace a license to sin whether they can see that or not. Not being able to see that doesn't mean it's not a license to sin. It means you just can't see that it is.

There are many here who should be pooh-poohing this post because they have said over and over that the true believer WILL have works, but they also seem to believe at the same time that you do not have to have works. They will not say a word against what you have said here even though they insist that the true believer will have works. Depending on the discussion they will say you don't have to have works to be saved, i.e. being killed off by God. They speak out of both sides of their mouth. But of course they deny doing that.

We're witnessing in our time a wholesale rejection of the Bible and a falling away from the truth. This is the end for the Christian church. In my opinion we will not recover from this. This is the great falling away before Jesus comes back for his own.

"with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...it will not come unless the apostasy comes first"-2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

The apostasy is here. Up next, the return of Christ.

I say what I said to you a few days ago- it is not YOUR place to judge other's salvation.

if you want to see folks come to Christ, drop the judgemnetal attitude. if you want to know why the Church is not doing well, look in the mirror. you do not have the keys to the Kingdom.

 

[Ralph-]

I did a quick Google search last night and this morning. Here's some interesting reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Calvinism



This one is particularly interesting because it contrasts historical Calvinism and Arminianism with what is being pushed today in this thread and in many churches. Click on item 3 in the table of contents in the article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

 

[Ralph-]

I say what I said to you a few days ago- it is not YOUR place to judge other's salvation.

if you want to see folks come to Christ, drop the judgemnetal attitude. if you want to know why the Church is not doing well, look in the mirror. you do not have the keys to the Kingdom.

You aren't listening. I've been saying over and over and over again EXAMINE YOURSELF! I'm just saying what Paul said. Your beef is with him. (By the way it's funny how I'm not allowed to judge you, which I'm not, I don't know who you are, but you can judge me as not having the keys to the kingdom?).


Oh, and BillG, notice the 'if you want to see folks come to Christ'.
I told you, didn't I? I know what I'm talking about here, BilG.

 

[Ralph-]

You people have been pushing the forbidden doctrine and you don't even know it.

 

[gb9]

You aren't listening. I've been saying over and over and over again EXAMINE YOURSELF! I'm just saying what Paul said. Your beef is with him. (By the way it's funny how I'm not allowed to judge you, which I'm not, I don't know who you are, but you can judge me as not having the keys to the kingdom?).


Oh, and BillG, notice the 'if you want to see folks come to Christ'.
I told you, didn't I? I know what I'm talking about here, BilG.

yes, we should examine ourselves . you start.

the Gospel begins in John 3 16. do you not think that should be our message?

 

[Ralph-]

the Gospel begins in John 3 16. do you not think that should be our message?

That's a good start. Make sure you emphasize the present tense of 'believes', and that the rest of the counsel of God shows us that the believing that does not then work is the believing that can not save. The believing that saves is signified by what it does. No proof of believing means no believing unto eternal life is in you to save you.