Not By Works
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U
Saved people already have the kingdom of God within them ...the incorruptible seed.
Should they fall from Grace (abiding in Christ), which is not salvation but the Spirit led walk, it is up to God how and when He will chasten them or they may even die.
As you have been told before, the adopted son or daughter is dealt with by God because we are His children.
Neither you nor I can observe a persons outward behaviour in any point in time and decide saved or unsaved with 100% percent certainty unless God reveals it to us.
Evidence is not conclusive proof.
If you have been a believer who has walked with believers from all walks of life you would know this to be true.
The absolute measure of salvation is the imputation of the righteousness of Christ within the believer which can never be lost or forsaken.
You Ralphie, always want to make the measure of salvation "living in sin" ....... you do realize that means the cross is not efficacious at a certain level of sin.
So again please state what that level is. I am forthright and honest enough to say all sins have been paid for because that is the Gospel.
Yet you Ralphie.... instead of seeing the immeasurable love in the gift of salvation so that yes all sins, past present and future, are forgiven for the believer will twist this and say we make grace a license to sin
And if the believers in your church are fallen from grace and are not walking in the Spirit of Jesus it behooves you to tell them that they need to return to abiding in Christ so that they can live in the riches of His Love and Grace and the bondage of that sin will be dealt with by Jesus this I can stake my life on.
Should they fall from Grace (abiding in Christ), which is not salvation but the Spirit led walk, it is up to God how and when He will chasten them or they may even die.
As you have been told before, the adopted son or daughter is dealt with by God because we are His children.
Neither you nor I can observe a persons outward behaviour in any point in time and decide saved or unsaved with 100% percent certainty unless God reveals it to us.
Evidence is not conclusive proof.
If you have been a believer who has walked with believers from all walks of life you would know this to be true.
The absolute measure of salvation is the imputation of the righteousness of Christ within the believer which can never be lost or forsaken.
You Ralphie, always want to make the measure of salvation "living in sin" ....... you do realize that means the cross is not efficacious at a certain level of sin.
So again please state what that level is. I am forthright and honest enough to say all sins have been paid for because that is the Gospel.
Yet you Ralphie.... instead of seeing the immeasurable love in the gift of salvation so that yes all sins, past present and future, are forgiven for the believer will twist this and say we make grace a license to sin
And if the believers in your church are fallen from grace and are not walking in the Spirit of Jesus it behooves you to tell them that they need to return to abiding in Christ so that they can live in the riches of His Love and Grace and the bondage of that sin will be dealt with by Jesus this I can stake my life on.
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R
P4T getting on Ralph's case:
"neither fear them nor fear their words, though thistles and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions; neither fear their words nor be dismayed at their presence, for they are a rebellious house. But you shall speak My words to them whether they listen or not, for they are rebellious."-Ezekiel 3:8-9, 2:6-7
But thank you anyway for confirming what has been said about his behavior in this thread.
Why do you slam Calvinists every chance you get ? ? ? We have NOTICED that you do not even know what we believe, only what someone else, with ERRORS in the Doctrines about what we Believe, while you go on raling about Calvinists. Is that some kind of PHOBIA, about being called a Calvinists? AND like I said before, I only believe in 3 of the 5 points, so NOBODY will claim me.
Here is the TRUTH. It is NOT my righteousness, IT IS HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AS HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS ME TO DO IN MINISTRY.
DO YOU REMEMBER, that we are NOT greater than our master?
John 14:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works.
Now YOU are doing your Works by your own STRENGTH, NOT THE FATHER'S, nor of JESUS CHRIST'S.
That is where you go wrong.
I used to be a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain, in the "end of the line", in California Dept. of Corrections, for several years. I DID NOT DO ANYTHING BY MY POWER, I allowed JESUS CHRIST to DO IT through me. He gets all the Glory for those works.
Galatians 2:19-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
I told you before, it is your motive for doing works, that is WRONG.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Belief:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Works:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Belief + Works:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Belief + Works:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Works:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Belief + Works:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Belief + Works:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]
R
Can I take this as a yes then, that grace makes it so the passages about people living in sin and not inheriting the kingdom do not apply to that person? I'm asking because the accusation of lying and slander is slung around here a lot. So just to be sure, it sure sounds like that's what you're saying. Please confirm or deny.
What's interesting is once saved always saved, which is a Calvinist doctrine, says if fall away from Christ so as to need what you spoke about in your quote above, you are showing you are not even born again to begin with because you did not endure to the very end.
I'm showing you that what you believe is the new once saved always saved doctrine in the church. The doctrine that is forbidden to be discussed in this forum.
Jesus differs with you.
"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."-John 15:8
If you stay with me on this, you will see that you have been seduced by the forbidden doctrine. The things that people have been defending here, including what you say in the above quote, are from this new forbidden doctrine. And they don't seem to be aware of that. It's a seducing spirit.
What I know is that if you hang around people you see if they are Christians or not. You don't know that by a chance encounter. That much I'll say is true.
This is a radical departure from the Calvinist doctrine of once saved always saved that has ruled over the church since the Reformation. It says you know if you have the righteousness of Christ in salvation if you do not fall away, ever, to the very end.
I don't. I'm just saying what the Bible says. The person who is living in sin will not inherit the kingdom. You think grace makes it so that isn't true for the person living in sin, right?
And here again you are exposing your forbidden doctrine beliefs.
That's why they call it H...grace. It believes there is no where the grace of God can not and will not go. It hyper extends to go anywhere. But the Bible is clear that there is a sin unto death where the grace of God will not go. The person who purposely lives in sin is in that place where the grace of God will not go. Even Calvinist reformed doctrine says the person living in sin is showing themselves to not be saved. The church, including Calvinist leaning people are abandoning Calvin in droves. The new once saved always saved doctrine is here.
It's whether or not you have an ever increasing measure of the traits of the Spirit. I've explained this several times and yet I'm still being asked for a legalistic measure of sin to know if you're living in sin or not. I would think you being Reformed (right?) that you of all people would be able to explain where the cut off is between sinning and living in sin since Reformed doctrine says if aren't enduring you are not saved. I would think they of all people know where the line is between enduring and not enduring is. Since you asked.
The grace of God does not go to the person who wants to live in sin. It can rescue them from living in sin, if they want the grace to do that. But grace will not go to the person living in sin thinking grace is their license to do that and them still be saved.
Did you forget? Reformed doctrine says if you fall from grace you were never saved to begin with. I apologize if I am remembering wrong and you do not defend Reformed doctrine. But anyway, what you defend here is the new forbidden 'H' doctrine that we can not discuss in this forum. You probably did not know this. It has sneaked into the church unawares and deceived Reformed believers by the masses.
What's interesting is once saved always saved, which is a Calvinist doctrine, says if fall away from Christ so as to need what you spoke about in your quote above, you are showing you are not even born again to begin with because you did not endure to the very end.
I'm showing you that what you believe is the new once saved always saved doctrine in the church. The doctrine that is forbidden to be discussed in this forum.
Jesus differs with you.
"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."-John 15:8
If you stay with me on this, you will see that you have been seduced by the forbidden doctrine. The things that people have been defending here, including what you say in the above quote, are from this new forbidden doctrine. And they don't seem to be aware of that. It's a seducing spirit.
What I know is that if you hang around people you see if they are Christians or not. You don't know that by a chance encounter. That much I'll say is true.
This is a radical departure from the Calvinist doctrine of once saved always saved that has ruled over the church since the Reformation. It says you know if you have the righteousness of Christ in salvation if you do not fall away, ever, to the very end.
I don't. I'm just saying what the Bible says. The person who is living in sin will not inherit the kingdom. You think grace makes it so that isn't true for the person living in sin, right?
And here again you are exposing your forbidden doctrine beliefs.
That's why they call it H...grace. It believes there is no where the grace of God can not and will not go. It hyper extends to go anywhere. But the Bible is clear that there is a sin unto death where the grace of God will not go. The person who purposely lives in sin is in that place where the grace of God will not go. Even Calvinist reformed doctrine says the person living in sin is showing themselves to not be saved. The church, including Calvinist leaning people are abandoning Calvin in droves. The new once saved always saved doctrine is here.
It's whether or not you have an ever increasing measure of the traits of the Spirit. I've explained this several times and yet I'm still being asked for a legalistic measure of sin to know if you're living in sin or not. I would think you being Reformed (right?) that you of all people would be able to explain where the cut off is between sinning and living in sin since Reformed doctrine says if aren't enduring you are not saved. I would think they of all people know where the line is between enduring and not enduring is. Since you asked.
The grace of God does not go to the person who wants to live in sin. It can rescue them from living in sin, if they want the grace to do that. But grace will not go to the person living in sin thinking grace is their license to do that and them still be saved.
Did you forget? Reformed doctrine says if you fall from grace you were never saved to begin with. I apologize if I am remembering wrong and you do not defend Reformed doctrine. But anyway, what you defend here is the new forbidden 'H' doctrine that we can not discuss in this forum. You probably did not know this. It has sneaked into the church unawares and deceived Reformed believers by the masses.
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U
I do know what you mean.... I really do not get that lying and slander thing.
I never knew that agreeing with one person over another was slandering another.
And I never knew that a person could know what I do or do not know, and then accuse me of lying for not knowing what they know. Figure that one out LOL
I will have to read this carefully before I respond.
I never knew that agreeing with one person over another was slandering another. And I never knew that a person could know what I do or do not know, and then accuse me of lying for not knowing what they know. Figure that one out LOL
I will have to read this carefully before I respond.
R
One on one evangelism OUTSIDE the church in the workplace, in the parking lots, and the highways and byways of life. That's how.
But of course, the church is open to any and all inquirers, but they can not become a part of the church until they are born again. Until then they remain guests. Honored guests, as long as they don't make trouble. They are to have no influence whatsoever in the affairs of the church and especially it's doctrinal beliefs and how to live them out. None whatsoever. Period.
When my kids were young we took them to church and they attended the youth group meetings. Instead of leading them to salvation they had them getting involved in church programs and activities designed to bring people to Christ (meaning bring them to church). They weren't even born again for them to even be concerned about that, but that is what the youth leaders thought being saved and being a Christian was all about. Whether you want to believe it or not, at least in the States, this is the prevalent thinking in the church. We exist to lead others to Christ, which means get them to attend church and support and engage in it's 'evangelistic' activities and community outreaches. That's what being a Christian means here in the States in many, if not most, churches.
But of course, the church is open to any and all inquirers, but they can not become a part of the church until they are born again. Until then they remain guests. Honored guests, as long as they don't make trouble. They are to have no influence whatsoever in the affairs of the church and especially it's doctrinal beliefs and how to live them out. None whatsoever. Period.
When my kids were young we took them to church and they attended the youth group meetings. Instead of leading them to salvation they had them getting involved in church programs and activities designed to bring people to Christ (meaning bring them to church). They weren't even born again for them to even be concerned about that, but that is what the youth leaders thought being saved and being a Christian was all about. Whether you want to believe it or not, at least in the States, this is the prevalent thinking in the church. We exist to lead others to Christ, which means get them to attend church and support and engage in it's 'evangelistic' activities and community outreaches. That's what being a Christian means here in the States in many, if not most, churches.
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R
I do know what you mean.... I really do not get that lying and slander thing. I never knew that agreeing with one person over another was slandering another.
And I never knew that a person could know what I do or do not know, and then accuse me of lying for not knowing what they know. Figure that one out LOL
I will have to read this carefully before I respond.
I never knew that agreeing with one person over another was slandering another. And I never knew that a person could know what I do or do not know, and then accuse me of lying for not knowing what they know. Figure that one out LOL
I will have to read this carefully before I respond.
R
Man, can't you see I'm DEFENDING your Calvinist leanings???
I'm not Calvinist but at least Calvinists defend righteous living by saying if you're not enduring in righteousness to the very end you are showing yourself to have never been saved.
I've got to get some other things done so I'll just leave it at that. Just know I want you to stand up to this ridiculous new once saved always saved doctrine that is being pushed in this thread and ruining the church. Unless you too have been seduced and led astray from classical Calvinist once saved always saved beliefs(?) Have you?
I'm not Calvinist but at least Calvinists defend righteous living by saying if you're not enduring in righteousness to the very end you are showing yourself to have never been saved.
I've got to get some other things done so I'll just leave it at that. Just know I want you to stand up to this ridiculous new once saved always saved doctrine that is being pushed in this thread and ruining the church. Unless you too have been seduced and led astray from classical Calvinist once saved always saved beliefs(?) Have you?
LOL!!!!!!! These truths will march on without you and don't need your support or endorsement as much as you think truth does. What are you, some spiritual maverick in your own mind?
Get over yourself, and end your lying about what others believe, making it appear they believe contrary to what they've said.
Get over yourself, and end your lying about what others believe, making it appear they believe contrary to what they've said.
R
Calvinism is history. You'll see. The new once saved always saved will win out before Christ returns.
I'm just trying to pull any Calvy's back to their senses that I can reach. I will remind them that at least Calvinism defends the truth that you have to have works and have them to the very end or else you are not saved and that there is no such thing as falling away and still being saved in that doctrine. Arminians on the other hand don't believe in once saved always saved to begin with and so are not open to the deception of the new once saved always saved where even if you fall away you are still saved.
I'm just trying to pull any Calvy's back to their senses that I can reach. I will remind them that at least Calvinism defends the truth that you have to have works and have them to the very end or else you are not saved and that there is no such thing as falling away and still being saved in that doctrine. Arminians on the other hand don't believe in once saved always saved to begin with and so are not open to the deception of the new once saved always saved where even if you fall away you are still saved.