Not By Works

[BillG]

No amount of works can Save a person. Salvation is free gift given to anyone and everyone that will receive it, it is the Grace of God that a person gets Saved.

There is a difference between Getting Saved and Being Saved. Getting Saved is the moment your name is written in the Book of Life. That moment was a singular moment in time, a specific moment, a specific time. That is GETTING SAVED. NO Works needed, no works required, you accept Him as you are, and you in no way deserve His Salvation, it is freely given to a person at a specific TIME, when their name is written in the Book of LIFE. OK, now lets move past that time, and talk about BEING SAVED.

It seems anytime i teach about BEING SAVED, people inevitably bring up conditions of Getting Saved, ie not works needed. However once a person is SAVED, works are needed. They are evidence of a person who is TRULY SAVED. There are many people who claim to be SAVED, yet they do not have any good works at all, they do not have the evidence that LOVE lives inside of them. These are they that i teach to.

Getting Saved = Faith ONLY, NO Works at all, NONE. Grace of God, Free Gift, Given to whoever will receive it.
Being Saved = Faith With Works, they go hand in hand. Anyone who Truly has Jesus living in them are going to be full of Good Works, because LOVE lives inside of them.

Those who i teach against are they that claim with their mouths that they are Saved, yet they have no works at all, these are devoid of good works, but claim that Jesus lives in them, these are they that believe FAITH ONLY is enough, not only for getting Saved, but being Saved as well, they do error and Scriptures teaches also they are in error. Faith ONLY for a person Being SAVED is dead.

How many accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord one day, and the next they are back into their old lives living in sins? What then? Every single person who ever walks up the alter and GETS SAVED, Accepts the free Gift of Salvation, Are at that moment forgiven by Jesus for all their past sins, REMAIN SAVED forever, no matter how many times they deny Christ? NO matter how much they live in sin? This is a false doctrine that is widely help on to during these last days. Accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord and it doesn't matter what you do thereafter you are still Saved, hogwash, lies from satan.

Good Works can't nor ever will SAVE YOU. However once you are Saved, you will be full of Good Works. Woe to those who claim to be Saved, and have no good works at all.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

DD,

I agree with a lot of what you say above. I think most here will agree that works will faith (side note I also think that works can increase faith after being saved)

I may have misunderstood you.

But I am cautious when you say.

"Being saved" which links to works.
This does come across as works are required to maintain salvation.

Maybe it's semantics but I look at it this way and have said to people.

"Now you are a child of God, he will work in you, to change you, seek his will for you"
Basically a child of God having been saved will start to behave as is child as they learn more about him.


"However once you are saved you will be full of Good Works"

The caution I have here is that it comes across as "Once you are saved you will be full of Good Work"
That can lead a person to think because they are not suddenly full of Good Works or changed overnight then maybe they are not saved. Which will cause them issues.

As I said I may have misunderstood you, but am responding to how this can come across.

I think one of the biggest problems today is the "Altar call"

People pray the sinners prayer and that's it.
They are then left to their own devices as such.

There needs to be follow up and discipleship.

Jesus himself said

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

make disciples: Making disciples involves three steps: going, baptizing, and teaching. It was assumed that when a person trusted in the Lord Jesus, he or she would be baptized (NKJV study notes)

If a person who proclaims faith in Jesus but has no desire to change then are they saved?

I am a big believer that when someone proclaims faith in Jesus they should be baptised straight away.


The relevance and meaning of baptism should be explained. If they say yes great, if no then there is an issue.

I had the reverse once.
Someone asked me to baptise them. I wasn't convinced they were saved.
So I asked them


Have you confessed with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead?

He said "No"
I asked him "Do you want to?
He said "No"

I refused to baptise him.

Anyway I hope the above makes some sense.

 

[Locutus]

Don't feed the Ralph...

 

[dcontroversal]

eternally-gratefull;3425802]

EG said:



I'm sorry EG, I could have sworn you used this scripture, as does Decon, to support your preaching that the Pharisees were trying to "earn Salvation" by keeping God's Laws, and not their own.
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So is Paul lying here EG? Or is he speaking to the Pharisees version of cleansing laws they followed which they taught was required to become "Righteous"?

I agree, of course, that "all have sinned". But Paul here, is following a Law, blameless. Is it God's Law, or the doctrines the Pharisees created?

Now Decon, teaches this is God's Law. I assumed, by your posts, that you were in agreement with him. If you are not, my apologies.

Decon said, and you liked;


The point I am trying to make is that the Pharisees, according to EVERY WORD OF Jesus regarding them, had created their own "doctrines" based on the "Commandments of Men" and not from God.

Whereas Zechariahs was actually following God's Instructions and had not created his own. Did he sin, just like the Pharisees and Abraham? Yes, but God showed Abraham and Zechariahs Grace and considered them both righteous, while rejecting the Pharisees.

If I were to believe your preaching, I would have to believe they all followed the same Laws, yet God gave grace to one, and refused Grace for the other.

So my question to you and Decon, is why must you further the teaching that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Instructions when Jesus, Paul and the Prophets all teach that they had created their own?

It's a perfectly relevant question given both you guys preaching and harsh judgment you have placed on everyone who listens to Jesus in this matter.



[/FONT][/COLOR]

I really suggest you do two things.....

a. Look up the word inspiration and how it applies to the word.

b. Then study the definite article translated "the" from the Greek.

Jesus was clear as a bell when he stated what the Pharisees had done with the law and PAUL WAS CLEAR WHEN THE SAME JESUS THROUGH THE SPIRIT...........INSPIRED HIM TO SAY THAT CONCERNING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS IN "THE" LAW HE WAS BLAMELESS.......

Paul was not speaking of the commandments of men being pushed as the doctrine of God...he used the DEFINITE ARTICLE THE, WAS INSPIRED TO WRITE WHAT WAS WRITTEN and the whole context was that OUTWARDLY he was BLAMELESS.......your failure to avknowledge this inspired truth has caused you to err in your view. That is the wnd of the story regardless of your ability to acknowledge the truth.

 

[dcontroversal]

Anyone who boasts of their works is not of God.
Anyone who boasts of Faith ONLY is not of God either.

Faith + Works go hand in hand.

Faith ONLY can Get a person Saved.
Works ONLY can Never get a person Saved.
Once Saved Faith ONLY without any good works is dead.
Once Saved Faith and good works go hand in hand.

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior COMMANDED us to "Love One Another" He COMMANDED us to have Good Works. Any Time you Love One Another you are doing a Good Work. Tell me, how can you Love One Another and it not be a Good Work?
Jesus Commanded us to "Love One Another"
i teach against those who claim that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, yet they do not have any Good Works, they are NOT Loving One Another as Jesus Commanded us to do. Those who claim Jesus is their Lord and have no good works at all, are they that belong to the group of believers called "Faith ONLY" If this is NOT you, then i am talking to you. But to those who think and believe that Faith ONLY is enough for a person who is already SAVED.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Faith alone is what saves end of story.....what you and others cannot grasp are found in the following list.....

a. Faith alone saves a man <-nothing added or take away
b. Salvation is a free gift based upon said faith....it cannot be earned, maintained, embellished by any work, merit, labor of man
c. It is eternally secure based upon the power and promises of God
d. Any work, labor, fruit produced is the direct result of one who is already saved by FAITH ALONE.

Save the rebuttal....a self proclaimed prophet who claims that Jesus will call him by his CC name in the day of judgment to reference his CC teaching so as to use it in judgment devoids said prophet of all credibility in my mind.....so does believing that one does not possess salvation NOW and or that salvation can be lost or forfeit......

 

[VCO]

Loving someone does not mean you do not tell them the truth. In fact it is unloving to suppress the truth that a person needs to hear so they can be saved and delivered from sin and made ready to meet Christ when he returns.

Maybe your beef is in how you tell the truth that people need to hear so they can get saved and grow up into Christ and be ready to meet Him at His return.

"but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ"-Ephesians 4:15.

You talk a good game, but DO YOU REALLY NEED THE LORD?

Does this Song truely mean something to you, or as I suspect, you only rely on self efforts?


[video=youtube;_rR_Rdb1CTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rR_Rdb1CTE[/video]

 

[Ralph-]

Don't feed the Ralph...

"the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."-Romans 1:18-19

 

[gb9]

"the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."-Romans 1:18-19

Paul did not write that for anyone who disagrees with the mighty ( wrong ) ralph. it was written primarily toward gays and idol worshipers.

learn some Scripture. in context that is. the Bible is not here for you to take and us it any ( wrong ) way you see fit.

 

[Ralph-]

You talk a good game, but DO YOU REALLY NEED THE LORD?

Does this Song truely mean something to you, or as I suspect, you only rely on self efforts?

Works of righteousness are how you know that you are relying on Him in a desperate need of Him. When a person is being self reliant they will be fruitless. Their unrighteous life is the evidence they are relying on self.

You people keep inventing this imaginary person who is doing works of righteousness by himself and you call them self righteous workers who do not know God. Problem is there is no such person who obeys the Lord outside of the Lord. If a person is obeying the Lord they show that they belong to Him.


"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples."-John 15:8


People who live righteous lives are righteous just as HE is righteous.


"the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil"-1 John 3:7-8


But many are saying people who live righteous lives are being self righteous. And that people who aren't living righteous lives are really the one's who are relying on Him. This is the new message of grace taking over in the church. It's replacing Calvinistic aligning doctrines where righteous living is the sign of being saved. In my opinion we will not recover from this. This is the end time undoing of the church before Jesus comes back.

 

[Ralph-]

I think one of the biggest problems today is the "Altar call"

People pray the sinners prayer and that's it.
They are then left to their own devices as such.

No, it's WORSE than that.

Now it's 'come to our church and hang out with us and get involved in all the things we're doing so others can come hang out with us too'. That's it. And they think that's what it means to know and love and serve God. And any sermons that are preached boil down to how grace means you don't have to be different when Jesus comes back to be saved because salvation is not by works and how that would be you trying to save yourself.

I'm not going to go into detail how it came to this but this is why the message of grace has been corrupted. The countless numbers of unconverted we've attracted into the church with our misguided programs and community outreach are changing the message of grace to suit their own unconverted selves.

 

[UnderGrace]

Actually Ralphie, you are not agreeing with me on any point.

What you have been essentially and continually promoting underneath all the various statements you have made...... is that a born again person can be unborn again and this will happen because of living in sin.

I have shown you that Paul in Galatians was not stating that.

What you have read into the verse is that those people had lost their salvation because of their lifestyle.

What Paul is actually saying is they never had it, not that they had lost eternal salvation.

From God's point of view you cannot waver from your status of born again (justified) we examine ourselves to make sure we are living in that status because that is the worthy Christian walk.

I agree.
We all agree on this point.


That's what I've been saying with one slight difference.

It doesn't matter if you were never born again to begin with, or you had it and lost it. The point is, if you are living in sin you are not born again. Which you agree with. You just think that person was never born again to begin with. But you definitely agree the person living in sin is not born again and will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns, right? That's the important point. Once saved always saved doctrine does not change that. It's a moot point to this topic.


You're preaching to the choir. We all know this. The disagreement lies in whether the not born again person was never saved to begin with, or that he lost it. But that doesn't matter. The point is the person who is living in sin is not born again and is not ready to meet Christ when he returns.

All of us have a responsibility to examine ourselves and make sure we're born again. We do that by examining our lives. That's not a works gospel. That's what the Bible says.

If we see we ourselves in passages like Galatians 5:19-21 and can see that we are condemned as being not born again, the answer is not to go out and do lots of works. The answer is to get born again. And you do that this way.........


"‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ “I tell you, this man went to his house justified"-Luke 18:13-14


Then, get water baptized as soon as possible to make yourself accountable to those around you that you are a Christian now, and seek the overflow of the Holy Spirit for power in whatever gift God has determined you to have and for power in daily living. Then begin to live the life you couldn't live before more and more as you grow up into the image of your Father in heaven who birthed you.

 

[UnderGrace]

If the message of Grace is corrupted find a better church.

No, it's WORSE than that.

Now it's 'come to our church and hang out with us and get involved in all the things we're doing so others can come hang out with us too'. That's it. And they think that's what it means to know and love and serve God. And any sermons that are preached boil down to how grace means you don't have to be different when Jesus comes back to be saved because salvation is not by works and how that would be you trying to save yourself.

I'm not going to go into detail how it came to this but this is why the message of grace has been corrupted. The countless numbers of unconverted we've attracted into the church with our misguided programs and community outreach are changing the message of grace to suit their own unconverted selves.

 

[Ralph-]

Faith alone is what saves end of story....

Maybe what you really mean is faith apart from works saves. That is true. And we know who has been saved by faith apart from the merit of works by the fact that their faith is not alone void of works.

The person who says they know God in a faith apart from works salvation who has no works, his faith being alone, does not have the salvation he claims he has. If he remains that way he will be rejected when Jesus comes back. That's why each of us has to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith-2 Corinthians 13:5. If we see that we are not, we need to stop being deceived and fall on the mercy of God and receive grace to become the person who practices righteousness who will inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.


"Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."-1 Corinthians 6:9-10


"Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


"For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them"-Ephesians 5:5-7


Now notice the diligent 'practice' of those who are assured entrance into the kingdom of God.

"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."-2 Peter 1:10-11



"Do not be deceived." "Be all the more diligent." That's not a works gospel.
He who has ears let him hear.

 

[Ralph-]

If the message of Grace is corrupted find a better church.

I'll let you know when I find one.

 

[Ralph-]

What you have read into the verse is that those people had lost their salvation because of their lifestyle.

What Paul is actually saying is they never had it, not that they had lost eternal salvation.

My opinion and your opinion about once saved always saved doesn't change the fact that the person living in sin will not inherit the kingdom of God. It doesn't matter if they never believed to begin with or they lost their salvation, they are unsaved and will not inherit the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Do you want to argue against Paul and John and say there are those who practice sin who WILL inherit the kingdom of God? This is where what you and I really believe gets exposed and will show if we're on the same page. I say there is no such person. What do you say?

 

[BillG]

No, it's WORSE than that.

Now it's 'come to our church and hang out with us and get involved in all the things we're doing so others can come hang out with us too'. That's it. And they think that's what it means to know and love and serve God. And any sermons that are preached boil down to how grace means you don't have to be different when Jesus comes back to be saved because salvation is not by works and how that would be you trying to save yourself.

I'm not going to go into detail how it came to this but this is why the message of grace has been corrupted. The countless numbers of unconverted we've attracted into the church with our misguided programs and community outreach are changing the message of grace to suit their own unconverted selves.

No it's not.
How are going to get people into church?

If we get people into church and they stay why is that?
Because they feel accepted and loved where they are at.
Jesus walked like that with the undesirables.

The issue is that the church does not do that.
I have sat with an alcoholic at the back of the church. He goes out and tops up.
When he comes back in I just sit with him.

He does not believe God can love him. I tell him him God loves him. I will walk with this guy every step.

The issue is lack of acceptance.

Nothing wrong with outreach. That's not the issue.

The issues are if someone comes to Jesus is what happens afterwards.

There's no point in putting bums on seats if you allow the bums to to walk out the back door.

Yes let them hang out with us, walk every step.

You seem to have dim view of church and what it teaches.

The church I go to does not teach what you think every church teaches.

But it does outreach, accepts people where they are at regardless.
Then they see the grace of God.

 

[UnderGrace]

It doesn't matter if they never believed to begin with or they lost their salvation,

I think this matters a great deal.

God's word is clear the person who is born again has received an eternal status/gift, not temporal.

My opinion and your opinion about once saved always saved doesn't change the fact that the person living in sin will not inherit the kingdom of God. It doesn't matter if they never believed to begin with or they lost their salvation, they are unsaved and will not inherit the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Do you want to argue against Paul and John and say there are those who practice sin who WILL inherit the kingdom of God? This is where what you and I really believe gets exposed and will show if we're on the same page. I say there is no such person. What do you say?

 

[kitty]

i think gods kingdom is wherever god is king and if you live in his kingdom by faith here you will live in his kingdom forever. the judgement of christ is not to determine where we spend eternity but to try our works for rewards,i think the great white throne judgement is different coming at the end of the millenium reign when the ungodly are judged and sent to hell

 

[Studyman]

I really suggest you do two things.....

a. Look up the word inspiration and how it applies to the word.

b. Then study the definite article translated "the" from the Greek.

Jesus was clear as a bell when he stated what the Pharisees had done with the law and PAUL WAS CLEAR WHEN THE SAME JESUS THROUGH THE SPIRIT...........INSPIRED HIM TO SAY THAT CONCERNING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS IN "THE" LAW HE WAS BLAMELESS.......

Paul was not speaking of the commandments of men being pushed as the doctrine of God...he used the DEFINITE ARTICLE THE, WAS INSPIRED TO WRITE WHAT WAS WRITTEN and the whole context was that OUTWARDLY he was BLAMELESS.......your failure to avknowledge this inspired truth has caused you to err in your view. That is the wnd of the story regardless of your ability to acknowledge the truth.

So then, you acknowledge that Jesus said, clear as a bell, that the Pharisees had created their own Doctrines from the Commandments of men.


5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Why did Paul say this? I mean, Jesus was clear as a bell that the Pharisees had created their own Law. Isn't Paul saying here, "as touching or concerning the Law, a Pharisee". And then goes on to say he followed (the) this Law "Blameless". I mean you are always telling folks how it is impossible to keep God's Laws. Why now do you flip flop and say that Paul teaches he was following God's Laws perfectly as a Pharisee? And doesn't Paul contradict your teaching in the Christ inspired words of Romans 1?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Is this following God's Laws, or the one Jesus said they created?

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Is this following God's Laws, or the one Jesus said they created?

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

What such things Decon? Is this talking about following God's Laws, or the Laws Jesus said they created?


And Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Establish Their own Righteousness? Isn't this exactly what Jesus said they did?


So in these scriptures Paul, being inspired by Jesus, is explaining what happened to the Pharisees. How can you claim then, that Paul changed his mind later on and said that the Pharisees were not following their own traditions and doctrines as he and Jesus said earlier, but were now following God's Laws (As opposed to the Pharisees Law Jesus said they created) "blameless"

It doesn't ADD up. It makes Jesus Word and Paul's words in Romans false. I mean the Pharisees were either following God's Laws like Zechariahs and Abraham, or they had created their own Laws as Jesus, Paul and the entire Law and Prophets teach.

You really didn't answer my question. You guys are preaching this stuff, How do you reconcile the huge difference between how Jesus and Paul spoke about the Prophet killers, and about how you and EG preach about them.

These are fair questions given how judgmental you guys are.

I'm not looking for a fight here. I appreciate your somewhat softening tone. I genuinely need to understand why there seems to be this great chasm between how Jesus and Paul taught about the Pharisees and how you and EG preach about them.

I know what inspire means BTW, and Paul used "The" Law in many places including the following.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So there it is Decon. Black and White. "The Law". Do we use other scriptures to better understand this verse, or do we, as you are in Philippians, place this one above all others?

 

[Ralph-]

I think this matters a great deal.

God's word is clear the person who is born again has received an eternal status/gift, not temporal.

The word of God is also clear that those who live in sin will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

So, to see if we're really in disagreement or not, do you believe there is this particular group of saved people who live in sin and who WILL inherit the kingdom of God when Jesus comes back? The reason they will inherit the kingdom being that salvation is not by works, and 'once saved always saved'? Is this what you believe? I'm just asking so I can be clear on your stance.

 

[Seohce]

Malachi 2:17 The Day of Judgment You have wearied the Lord with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you ask. By saying, “All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”

Malachi 3:13-18 “You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what i say?

Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”