Not By Works

[stillness]

Listen, you: when someone makes something up about another person that is completely false, misleading, and slanderous, then posts it on the board as if it were factual, it is lies, plain and simple, not a misunderstanding of Scripture, but willful, mean spirited, and deliberate attempts to discredit another. Is it a serious matter? Why, yes, yes it is! There is a commandment about it, even It is called bearing false witness. God hates lying lips.

Everyone shall bear their own judgment, "For with the judgment you judge you will be judged." I have grieved at the misunderstanding and did what I could to clear it up, and shake the dust of my feet. Think not that your air of superiority is "Whoever is great among you, let him serve." Rather it's putting otters down to feel better about yourself, it shows insecurity. Shaking the dust of my feet means I will not be in works.

 

[Magenta]

Everyone shall bear their own judgment, "For with the judgment you judge you will be judged." I have grieved at the misunderstanding and did what I could to clear it up, and shake the dust of my feet. Think not that your air of superiority is "Whoever is great among you, let him serve." Rather it's putting otters down to feel better about yourself, it shows insecurity. Shaking the dust of my feet means I will not be in works.

You did nothing to clear it up. You do not even understand what was going on.

 

[dcontroversal]

You don't seem to realize that all the scriptures he provided make it impossible for you to interpret what Paul said about himself the way you do.

Your interpretation makes the other verses he shared not true. But his use of the verses he provided does not make the single passage you cite not true. That's how we know which argument is the truth.

The above ignorance of inspiration is exactly why you espouse Cainology and a false gospel with no power.....

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Everyone shall bear their own judgment, "For with the judgment you judge you will be judged." I have grieved at the misunderstanding and did what I could to clear it up, and shake the dust of my feet. Think not that your air of superiority is "Whoever is great among you, let him serve." Rather it's putting otters down to feel better about yourself, it shows insecurity. Shaking the dust of my feet means I will not be in works.

Methinks there is no salvation for otters. Regard them not though they pray unceasingly.

 

[Studyman]

Nice try pal no dice though and the points above....no weight nor value because much of what you say I have not said nor indicated....wake up man...I made a valid, biblical statement about Paul and what he was inspired to write concerning the law and the righteousness of the law and you cannot accept it, but must deflect because it alone ruins your stance.....end of story!

How have I deflected? Please be specific regarding your accusations.

no weight nor value because much of what you say I have not said nor indicated

Please be specific. How have I miss-represented what you preach?

My understanding of you and EG's preaching regarding the Pharisees is that the Pharisees weren't teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, but were following God's Laws "Blameless". That Jesus rejected them for obeying God's Instructions, not for rejecting God's Instructions and creating their own.

You preach that Paul is saying the Pharisees, while murdering the Prophets and Stephen,(persecuting God's Church) were actually following God's Laws "blameless", and not the Laws Jesus said they created.

Please show me how I got your preaching wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How have I deflected? Please be specific regarding your accusations.



Please be specific. How have I miss-represented what you preach?

My understanding of you and EG's preaching regarding the Pharisees is that the Pharisees weren't teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men, but were following God's Laws "Blameless". That Jesus rejected them for obeying God's Instructions, not for rejecting God's Instructions and creating their own.

You preach that Paul is saying the Pharisees, while murdering the Prophets and Stephen,(persecuting God's Church) were actually following God's Laws "blameless", and not the Laws Jesus said they created.

Please show me how I got your preaching wrong.

See the highlighted section of your post.

This is wrong. I have never stated such a thing. About the only thing which even comes close was a paul who stated he was blameless concerning the law.

No one is blameless concerning the law. If they were, they would be sinless. And would nto need christ to die for them. (All have sinned and fall short)

 

[Ralph-]

The kingdom is something we can enter into "now" which we will "be" in after our time here is completed.

But in order to enter it now, we must be "reborn" or "born again".

I agree.
We all agree on this point.

Paul in this verse in Galatians isn't talking about going to heaven or losing salvation.

What that verse is saying is the people who live like this are those that are not yet born again.

That's what I've been saying with one slight difference.

It doesn't matter if you were never born again to begin with, or you had it and lost it. The point is, if you are living in sin you are not born again. Which you agree with. You just think that person was never born again to begin with. But you definitely agree the person living in sin is not born again and will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus returns, right? That's the important point. Once saved always saved doctrine does not change that. It's a moot point to this topic.

You can't come through knowledge, studying, disciplinary action, good works of any kind . . it's not by what you do, but by what you're born into.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

You're preaching to the choir. We all know this. The disagreement lies in whether the not born again person was never saved to begin with, or that he lost it. But that doesn't matter. The point is the person who is living in sin is not born again and is not ready to meet Christ when he returns.

All of us have a responsibility to examine ourselves and make sure we're born again. We do that by examining our lives. That's not a works gospel. That's what the Bible says.

If we see we ourselves in passages like Galatians 5:19-21 and can see that we are condemned as being not born again, the answer is not to go out and do lots of works. The answer is to get born again. And you do that this way.........


"‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ “I tell you, this man went to his house justified"-Luke 18:13-14


Then, get water baptized as soon as possible to make yourself accountable to those around you that you are a Christian now, and seek the overflow of the Holy Spirit for power in whatever gift God has determined you to have and for power in daily living. Then begin to live the life you couldn't live before more and more as you grow up into the image of your Father in heaven who birthed you.

 

[BillG]

What some people perceive as tearing down is actually what God is using to try to build them up.

Tearing down or apart a person is not building up

 

[BillG]

We're supposed to do this with the unsaved too.
I don't believe we are to look down on even the unbeliever.
We are to love both the believer and the unbeliever.

Without a doubt but we must remember

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


And not forget
Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[Ralph-]

Tearing down or apart a person is not building up

It's how you perceive it.

Before I was born again, any and all suggestion that I was a lost sinner and that I needed to be born again was taken as judgmental condemnation. But now that I'm born again I see that's not what it was at all. It was the truth I needed to hear so I could be saved.

And that is what is happening in this thread. People are hearing the Biblical truth that living in sin means you're not born again as offensive, instead of what it really is.

 

[Studyman]

eternally-gratefull;3425802]

EG said:

Another one who calls paul a liar.

Phil 3: 4 - though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


No one Denys they added laws. But the laws they had it MADE IT HARDER TO BREAK THE LAW OF MOSES. If people would stop being so consumned with self and your own work, and look to reality you would see this, But no. Your to proud. And to puffed up just like the pharisees were. Amazing that you judge them when you are just like them!

I'm sorry EG, I could have sworn you used this scripture, as does Decon, to support your preaching that the Pharisees were trying to "earn Salvation" by keeping God's Laws, and not their own.
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So is Paul lying here EG? Or is he speaking to the Pharisees version of cleansing laws they followed which they taught was required to become "Righteous"?

I agree, of course, that "all have sinned". But Paul here, is following a Law, blameless. Is it God's Law, or the doctrines the Pharisees created?

Now Decon, teaches this is God's Law. I assumed, by your posts, that you were in agreement with him. If you are not, my apologies.

Decon said, and you liked;

No, actually it is true......Paul was clear...Outwardly as a Pharisee and concerning the law he was beyond reproach....can't you workers for get your facts straight? Obviously not!!

The point I am trying to make is that the Pharisees, according to EVERY WORD OF Jesus regarding them, had created their own "doctrines" based on the "Commandments of Men" and not from God.

Whereas Zechariahs was actually following God's Instructions and had not created his own. Did he sin, just like the Pharisees and Abraham? Yes, but God showed Abraham and Zechariahs Grace and considered them both righteous, while rejecting the Pharisees.

If I were to believe your preaching, I would have to believe they all followed the same Laws, yet God gave grace to one, and refused Grace for the other.

So my question to you and Decon, is why must you further the teaching that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Instructions when Jesus, Paul and the Prophets all teach that they had created their own?

It's a perfectly relevant question given both you guys preaching and harsh judgment you have placed on everyone who listens to Jesus in this matter.

 

[Ralph-]

Without a doubt but we must remember

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


And not forget
Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Loving someone does not mean you do not tell them the truth. In fact it is unloving to suppress the truth that a person needs to hear so they can be saved and delivered from sin and made ready to meet Christ when he returns.

Maybe your beef is in how you tell the truth that people need to hear so they can get saved and grow up into Christ and be ready to meet Him at His return.

"but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ"-Ephesians 4:15.

 

[stonesoffire]

Who yer quoting at there Stones?

Who else? Ralph. And he knows it.

 

[stonesoffire]

eternally-gratefull;3425802]

EG said:



I'm sorry EG, I could have sworn you used this scripture, as does Decon, to support your preaching that the Pharisees were trying to "earn Salvation" by keeping God's Laws, and not their own.
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So is Paul lying here EG? Or is he speaking to the Pharisees version of cleansing laws they followed which they taught was required to become "Righteous"?

I agree, of course, that "all have sinned". But Paul here, is following a Law, blameless. Is it God's Law, or the doctrines the Pharisees created?

Now Decon, teaches this is God's Law. I assumed, by your posts, that you were in agreement with him. If you are not, my apologies.

Decon said, and you liked;


The point I am trying to make is that the Pharisees, according to EVERY WORD OF Jesus regarding them, had created their own "doctrines" based on the "Commandments of Men" and not from God.

Whereas Zechariahs was actually following God's Instructions and had not created his own. Did he sin, just like the Pharisees and Abraham? Yes, but God showed Abraham and Zechariahs Grace and considered them both righteous, while rejecting the Pharisees.

If I were to believe your preaching, I would have to believe they all followed the same Laws, yet God gave grace to one, and refused Grace for the other.

So my question to you and Decon, is why must you further the teaching that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Instructions when Jesus, Paul and the Prophets all teach that they had created their own?

It's a perfectly relevant question given both you guys preaching and harsh judgment you have placed on everyone who listens to Jesus in this matter.



[/FONT][/COLOR]

Paul studied under Gamalial. It seems to me that I read that this made a difference between Paul, and the Pharisees that Jesus called vipers. The latter had pull with the Romans, and the last thing they wanted was a King to come into rule and overthrow their plans, whatever they were.

And Gamalial had a different heart.

Acts 5:34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law who was respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and ordered the men to be taken outside for a little while.

5:38 "I'm telling you to keep away from these men for now. Leave them alone, because if this plan or movement is of human origin, it will fail.


Act 5:39 However, if it is from God, you won't be able to stop them, and you may even discover that you are fighting against God!" So they were convinced by him.

Paul thought he was actually doing the will of God.

He should of listened to his teacher.

 

[Locutus]

Who else? Ralph. And he knows it.

I thought it was - just checking..

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

There are many on this thread who claim to know the TRUTH but are devoid of any good works, which Scriptures plainly teaches us to maintain, to DO, to Have. But because these believe false doctrines which teach against any works at all, they are not given the TRUTH of Scriptures. How can anyone who continually obeys satan and live in sins, come to the knowledge of the TRUTH? Demons believe in Jesus, are they Saved? Believing is not enough, FAITH ONLY is not enough.

Nobody teaches against any works at all, Dave, for we are saved to do good works.

Nobody? Really? Do you answer for every single person who comes in CC? How is saying "Nobody teaches against any works at all" not a generalization? Does Scriptures teach against those who are "Faith Only" based believers? Are not the Faith Only believers those who believe Faith ONLY is enough and works are not required? If then i teach against those who are Faith ONLY, like the Scriptures do as well, how is that evil? If then Scriptures teaches against those who are Faith ONLY which are devoid of works, why do you think i am wrong to teach against those who believe Faith ONLY which are devoid of any works?

Notice the word order of that sentence? It does not say we do good works and then are saved, does it? No,

And you think i have said that or implied that somewhere? Please try to understand to which group of people i am referring to. To the group that believe Faith ONLY is enough, and are devoid of good works. If then you do not fit into that group, then what i said is not to you is it? What i said is not to any person who is full of Faith and also Good Works. What i said is specifically to those who think and believe that Faith ONLY is enough and that no works are needed, required, or even should be done. You are in error if you think this group does not exist.

Scripture teaches that works do not save, for we are saved by grace through faith.

Amen, and i have never said otherwise.

Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Amen.

It seems you are promoting lies of Satan while professing to know truth,

Tell me is it from God or satan that accuses another person of something without giving the evidence of such accusations? You said i "Seem" to be promoting lies of satan, yet do not give one example of anything that i have said that is a lie, or even contrary to any verse in Scriptures. So then who is whispering to you that it seems i am teaching lies of satan? If you are going to accuse someone of this, should you not do the Godly thing and reveal as to WHY you think i am doing that? For example: "Dave i feel you are teaching lies from satan, because you said

_____ _____ ___ ______ -_______.

Which is contrary to verse ____:__" But what do i get instead? Merely an accusation without any grounds for such accusations, is that of God or no?

and also putting on some pretense of knowing intimately the details of the lives of "many" on this thread, to say they are devoid of any good works.

How are you not doing the same? Are you not saying "NOBODY" is devoid of works? Did you not say

Nobody teaches against any works at all, Dave,

So do you not have some pretense of knowing intimately the details of the lives of "EVERYONE" on this thread, that not a single person is devoid of good works. That there is not one person that believe FAITH ONLY?

And as to your accusation of me having intimate knowledge of "many" on this thread, i would like to set you straight on that matter. i don't have any intimate knowledge of anyone on this thread. What i was saying is to those who believe Faith ONLY is enough. If then you are not one of those then the message is not to you or directed to you, But to those who believe that FAITH ONLY is enough, which Scriptures condemns even though they have Faith.

Is that what you consider doing a good work? Shameful.

sigh... ...

God hates lying lips, Dave.

Not only that, but no liar will enter into Heaven as Rev 21:8 plainly teaches. Tell me. If a person accuses another of something and that something is NOT True, is that a lie or not? So then if a person accuses another person of this or that, and it is not TRUE, how is that person doing the accusations not a liar?

I realize you claim to be a prophet.

i am what God made me.

You have just outed yourself as a false prophet.

So then according to Magenta, i am a false prophet. Scriptures teach a false prophet is one who prophesies a thing and that thing does not come to pass is a false prophet. Also if anyone who claims to be prophet teaches anything that is contrary to Scriptures is also a false prophet. Tell me, since you have accused me of being a false prophet, can you show Scripturally that i am a false prophet, or just lie and accuse me of being a false prophet based on YOUR opinions for determining who is a false prophet and who is a True one? Have i said something this did not come to pass? Have i said anything in 2,582 posts that was contrary to any Scriptures at all? How than do you not accuse me of being a false prophet? What? Because your belief does not line up with what i am teaching? You see to that, what is that to me? If i am teaching something contrary to Scriptures, this is what is important, but teaching thing that are contrary to Magenta, what is that to me?

I hope you repent of your sin, Dave.

Against, you are accusing me of committing a sin, but do not give any Scriptures of anything in Scriptures that i have broken? You accuse me of sinning, yet do not even tell what sin that is that i have committed, why is that? If i have committed a sin, i will repent of it immediately and cease to ever do it again. Therefore do the Godly thing and point out which sin that i committed so that i may repent of it? How can i repent of a sin if i do not know what sin you are talking about. Tell me my sin, so that i can repent of it. Thanks. Or continue to do the ungodly thing and accuse me of being False and committing sin based on your opinions and not based on any Holy Inspired by God Scriptures.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hi Dave...Paul said in Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus...

This point as I have just read he is at a mature time in his race towards heaven, to think like this he must of been fully mature...I have such a long way to go , but I do know perseverance is a must, we can become stagnant, nothing runs from stagnant water, it becomes cloudy, then everything in it becomes dead, nothing can live on a dead pond...Ii was looking at a Scripture yesterday in Revelations, can not remember where it was, but it said something about the works that we have done jesus will take them into account, I wish I wrote it down now because it caught my eye , so I do know for sure that our works are important, but I know they have nothing to do with me being saved , I am saved by Gods grace alone through faith but yes they are to follow...xox...

No amount of works can Save a person. Salvation is free gift given to anyone and everyone that will receive it, it is the Grace of God that a person gets Saved.

There is a difference between Getting Saved and Being Saved. Getting Saved is the moment your name is written in the Book of Life. That moment was a singular moment in time, a specific moment, a specific time. That is GETTING SAVED. NO Works needed, no works required, you accept Him as you are, and you in no way deserve His Salvation, it is freely given to a person at a specific TIME, when their name is written in the Book of LIFE. OK, now lets move past that time, and talk about BEING SAVED.

It seems anytime i teach about BEING SAVED, people inevitably bring up conditions of Getting Saved, ie not works needed. However once a person is SAVED, works are needed. They are evidence of a person who is TRULY SAVED. There are many people who claim to be SAVED, yet they do not have any good works at all, they do not have the evidence that LOVE lives inside of them. These are they that i teach to.

Getting Saved = Faith ONLY, NO Works at all, NONE. Grace of God, Free Gift, Given to whoever will receive it.
Being Saved = Faith With Works, they go hand in hand. Anyone who Truly has Jesus living in them are going to be full of Good Works, because LOVE lives inside of them.

Those who i teach against are they that claim with their mouths that they are Saved, yet they have no works at all, these are devoid of good works, but claim that Jesus lives in them, these are they that believe FAITH ONLY is enough, not only for getting Saved, but being Saved as well, they do error and Scriptures teaches also they are in error. Faith ONLY for a person Being SAVED is dead.

How many accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord one day, and the next they are back into their old lives living in sins? What then? Every single person who ever walks up the alter and GETS SAVED, Accepts the free Gift of Salvation, Are at that moment forgiven by Jesus for all their past sins, REMAIN SAVED forever, no matter how many times they deny Christ? NO matter how much they live in sin? This is a false doctrine that is widely help on to during these last days. Accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord and it doesn't matter what you do thereafter you are still Saved, hogwash, lies from satan.

Good Works can't nor ever will SAVE YOU. However once you are Saved, you will be full of Good Works. Woe to those who claim to be Saved, and have no good works at all.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Those who are genuinely saved by faith <----Have ALREADY DONE THE WORKS OF THE HEAVENLY FATHER.....why can't the workers for acknowledge this?

That work is done when a person GETS SAVED. Shall we move on to what a person should do once they ARE SAVED?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Funny thing....it is the plenteous in number that cones before the throne boasting of their works in the name of Jesus that end up in hell....HE DOES not say that about those who rely soley upon his mercy and grave through faith......the workers for in here.....they boast of works

Anyone who boasts of their works is not of God.
Anyone who boasts of Faith ONLY is not of God either.

Faith + Works go hand in hand.

Faith ONLY can Get a person Saved.
Works ONLY can Never get a person Saved.
Once Saved Faith ONLY without any good works is dead.
Once Saved Faith and good works go hand in hand.

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior COMMANDED us to "Love One Another" He COMMANDED us to have Good Works. Any Time you Love One Another you are doing a Good Work. Tell me, how can you Love One Another and it not be a Good Work?
Jesus Commanded us to "Love One Another"
i teach against those who claim that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, yet they do not have any Good Works, they are NOT Loving One Another as Jesus Commanded us to do. Those who claim Jesus is their Lord and have no good works at all, are they that belong to the group of believers called "Faith ONLY" If this is NOT you, then i am talking to you. But to those who think and believe that Faith ONLY is enough for a person who is already SAVED.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John 1:9, “Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess YHWH. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son.” [/FONT]